Navy's new replenishment ships

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Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

The decision is in and the winner is...NAVANTIA! :clap: :tup: :D

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Two Cantabria's have been selected to replace Sirius and Success, both to be built in Navantia's Ferrol shipyard.

The report below covers the high points, though it was written by a South Australian journalist and like the politicians in that state they seem to believe they have a god-given right to build warships, even when ASC doesn't have the capability or the expertise to do so. Xenephon's, Labor's and ASC's comments below can be dismissed for the self-serving crap that they are.

The Navy felt Cantabria was a good fit with RAN operations when she operated down here for a year, a perfect example of try before you buy in action. This is a significant win for the RAN, replacing Success with a ship that is equally if not more capable and Sirius, which never really worked, with something light years ahead in capability.

The ships will be built in Spain but some / most of the fitting out will be done in Australia as per the two LPDs. The final percentage of the work to be done in Australia is to be finalised during the second stage negotiations.

I had heard from contacts in Canberra that Cantabria was the favored to win, after all they had their proposed vessel in the water and in service, whereas DSME were offering a paper project (none of the AORs they have on order for Norway, the UK and possibly New Zealand) have been completed and commissioned.

DSME, I suspect, also lost out due to their well-known financial difficulties. I'd deem them a risk for any new contract.

Mike


Spanish shipyard Navantia’s 3000-job gain our loss
THE AUSTRALIAN MARCH 11, 2016 12:00AM

Rebecca Puddy
Reporter
Adelaide

About 3000 jobs will flow to Spain following the federal government’s selection of shipbuilder Navantia as the preferred tenderer for the navy’s new supply ships.

Defence Minister Marise Payne yesterday confirmed the decision to select Navantia as the preferred tenderer for the two new oil tankers, after Spanish media reported that officials in the shipbuilding town of Cadiz were celebrating the “historic” win.

The new defence Integrated Investment Plan puts the cost of the entire replacement supply ship program at $1 billion to $2bn, including long-term operations and sustainment, while Navantia’s 19,500-tonne Cantabria-class replenishment vessels each cost about $350 million.

The defence white paper released last month says a third replenishment or logistics vessel will follow in the late 2020s.

Ms Payne said local industry involvement under the contract was worth more than $100m, with the government determining that Australian shipyards did not have the capacity to complete the ships in the required time, given their size and the limitations of South Australia’s shoplift and yard capacity.

“It has been clear for years that these ships required replacing but the former Labor government did nothing to address this,” she said.

“The ships are required as soon as possible by navy and the government has confirmed a preferred partner.”

Navantia, which was in discussions with senior Defence bureaucrats yesterday, declined to comment on how many Australian jobs would flow from the contract.

The company’s managing director­, Francisco Baron, has previously­ said the ships would be built “basically in Spain”.

It is understood SAAB has submitted a proposal to Navantia to build the vessels’ combat systems, which would occur in Adelaide and provide navy with crew transferability between the Anzac frigates and the two Canberra-class amphibious assault ships that also use SAAB systems.

Malcolm Turnbull dodged questions about the decision on the final day of his pre-campaign blitz in South Australia, ahead of a speech on jobs and the economy.

“It’s good of you to come but we are giving an important speech about the future of the South Australian economy and the Australian economy and I hope you enjoy it,” he told The Australian.

Labor’s defence spokesman, Stephen Conroy, said the decision was another example of the Prime Minister saying one thing and doing another. “As a result of this government’s actions, more than 1500 Australian shipyard workers have lost their jobs across Australia,” he said.

Independent South Australian senator Nick Xenophon said it was “a kick in the guts for Australian workers and completely avoidable”. While the contract is yet to be formally offered to Navantia, the Spanish company is the sole tenderer in negotiations with the federal government for the final stage of negotiations ahead of second-pass approvals, the final phase of Defence’s capability acquisition process.

The tankers will replace HMAS Success, whose life of type ends next year, and HMAS Sirius. It is understood Defence will seek to extend the life of HMAS Success for five years, at a cost of about $200m, with the Spanish vessels expected from 2021.

Unsolicited bids to part-build the vessels in ASC’s Adelaide shipyard and BAE’s Williamstown shipyard were knocked out of contention following a 2014 Abbott government decision to hold a limited tender restricted to South Korea and Spain.

South Korea’s DSME had said earlier that under its tender more than 90 per cent of in-service support for the first five years after delivery would be done in Australia.

In 2013, ASC said it could deliver three ships for the price of two built offshore with some work allocated to Australian shipyards.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by glenhowells »

Hi Mike
I took a tour of Cantabria at IFR 2013 and was very impressed with her. On the weather deck around the RAS positions was very clean uncluttered. She had loads of deck space. They will be a good fit for fleet as most of it now has Europe origins. Although Cantabria was not in the RAN she did sport a pair of red kangaroo's on the bridge wings. As said in your post try before you bye is the best way to choose.

Cheers Glen
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by rritchie71 »

Whilst it will no doubt be "Australianised" to a degree, here is a nice information video of the Cantabria by Navantia, it gives a good idea of the capability and design of the ship.

Robert

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

A bit more detail, minus the wailing coming from a few South Australian politicians who seem to think that the inability of ASC to build a ship of this size, not have a synchrolift capable of lifting a 20,000 tonne ship and no space with the AWD build underway is irrelevant.

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Australia Picks Navantia To Build Two Replenishment Ships

Esteban Villarejo and Nigel Pittaway, Defense News 11:59 p.m. EST March 11, 2016

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(Photo: Spanish Navy)

Originally published 3:33 p.m. ET March 11; updated at 11:10 p.m. with reporting from Australia

MADRID and MELBOURNE — The Royal Australian Navy selected Spanish shipbuilder Navantia as preferred tenderer to construct two auxiliary oiler and replenishment (AOR) vessels, Australian Defense Minister Marise Payne confirmed.

Navantia beat the offer and conditions of Daewoo, the major South Korean shipbuilder.

The two new replenishment vessels are expected to be introduced into service by the early 2020s. However the conditions of the contract are not yet closed, industry sources said.

These two new replenishment ships will be inspired in the Spanish Navy's 19,800-ton SPS Cantabria class vessel, which deployed with the Royal Australian Navy in 2013. The Australian government paid the expenses of that deployment that year.

In 2007, the Royal Australian Navy contracted with Navantia to build two Landing Helicopter Dock ships, the Canberra and the Adelaide.

Navantia declined to provide Defense News with any of the conditions of the most recent AOR contract, citing their confidentiality.

Australian Defence Minister Defends Decision

Payne has defended the Turnbull government’s decision to award the AUS $1.2 billion (US $907 million) shipbuilding contract to Navantia.

The two large replenishment ships will replace the Royal Australian Navy’s two ageing supply ships, the Auxiliary Oiler and Replenishment (AOR) vessel HMAS Success and the logistics support ship, HMAS Sirius, both of which need to be replaced by early next decade.

In 2014 the Liberal Government, under the leadership of then-Prime Minister Tony Abbott, announced a limited tender for the two vessels, which would be built overseas. The two companies chosen were Navantia and Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering (DSME), which was proposing a design based upon its Aegir class AOR. At the time, the government considered that local shipyards would not have the capacity to construct the two large ships.

Although the decision to award the contract to Navantia has still not been officially announced by the Minister’s office, Payne was forced to admit the decision Friday in the wake of anger from the Federal opposition, labor unions and independent South Australian Sen. Nick Xenophon that the ships would not be built locally. In a radio interview with a South Australian radio station, the transcript of which was released by her office late Friday, Payne said that, based on advice received from the Department of Defence, the Liberal government gave first pass approval for the limited tender to go ahead.

“This is part of the next step in the process, which is a negotiation period with the builders,” she said. “But we do have an undertaking as part of the tender process for at least AUS $100 million (US $76 million) worth of Australian engagement in this particular project.”

The announcement of the decision came just days after Payne and Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull proclaimed South Australia as being at the forefront of the government’s plan to create a "world-class," sustainable naval shipbuilding industry. South Australia is currently building three Navantia-designed Air Warfare Destroyers for the RAN and will also be the main center for the construction of nine Future Frigates and up to 12 large conventional attack submarines.

However Xenephon said the government ignored an unsolicited proposal by South Australian shipbuilder ASC to also construct the replenishment vessels in Australian shipyards and labelled the decision to award the contract to Navantia as a “disgrace.”

“Whilst Spain is today celebrating the creation of 3,000 jobs — building Australian naval ships — workers are being laid off in SA and around the country. It is a kick in the guts for Australian workers and was completely avoidable. The contract for the two naval supply ships is worth $2 billion and Australian industry will only get a measly 5 percent or $100 million of that,” Xenephon said

In response, Minister Payne said that a new ship lift and cranes would need to be installed at the ASC facility in Adelaide and a new wharf built to accommodate the build. “None of that can actually happen before the third Air Warfare Destroyer is completed and has undergone its testing,” she said. “So those infrastructure upgrades couldn’t have started before 2020.”

Minister Payne said that contract negotiations with Navantia would now take place, with Second Pass approval likely to occur in mid-2016.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

Nice looking ships, but single shaft........never a good idea on a vessel required to go into harms way! :tdown:

Good video Robert.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by RussF172 »

That surprised me too. I thought she was twin shaft with a single rudder like the ANZACs but that CCS view of the monitor show a single shaft.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

No, they've always been single screw, as this model of Cantabria from Pacific 2012 shows.

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by RussF172 »

I should have gone back through my photos of her too, then I would have realised. I forgot that the Spanish like single shafts. The carrier Principe De Austarius is also single shaft and rudder. Nice and simple I suppose.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

Very simple, and just the way things should be kept, unless of course you actually have to go to war. What was the last major Naval Engagement the Spanish were in anyway........the Armada! And we all know how that ended :lol1: Just saying :lol:
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by alienpew »

No, it was the battle of Manila Bay in 1898, & that didn't go down very well for then either !!!!

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Post by RussF172 »

Looking at photos of the model that Mike put up and my own ones, I can imagine removing the stern refueling will be a one of the modifications. We never use it.
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Post by MikeJames »

Agreed, that photo up at the top of the thread shows Cantabria with a Canadian City Class and Spanish FFG replenishing alongside and a German frigate refueling astern.

I have never heard of the modern RAN undertaking stern refueling so it's a capability that can be dropped without too many consequences.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by rritchie71 »

They do have the capability, in the 90's when Success came out of refit we did it proving the systems, but I don't recall using it operationally, always side by side.

It's more of a European or Russian method, it's pretty rare for the U.S. to do it aswell.

Cheers

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

That was the way the Royal Navy did underway replenishment in the first half of World War 2, apparently they thought the whole alongside replenishment method was too dangerous, until they realised the US Navy was doing that as an everyday occurrence.

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by Steventico »

Hi
is this tanker sample class as the Amsterdam class that was in service with the Netherlands navy
if so one of our members has a good of set of drawing of the Amsterdam class ,we where due to start later on this year to start the making the mould or a one of hull


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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

I stand corrected Alien, will have to look into the Battle of Manila Bay. Anytime the Spanish (or French) got a kicking is of interest (Sorry, that's the Pom in me coming out :tnk:
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Post by MikeJames »

In fact the last major engagement of the Spanish Navy was during the Spanish Civil War, when one of their Canarias Class heavy cruisers (basically a modified County Class) was lost in a major night engagement, the Battle of Cape Palos.

Image

Basically three Nationalist cruisers including Baleares and three destroyers, encountered two Republican cruisers and six destroyers in a major battle, with Baleares torpedoed and sunk.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cape_Palos

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by alienpew »

Yea Mike, but that's like Reaol Madrid kicking an 'own goal'.

Sorry, slipped off topic.

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Post by littoralcombat »

A bit like one kicking ones own A*#e indeed! :tup:
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

Navantia had previously been selected as preferred proponent, subject to the company and Defence coming to suitable commercial terms. That has now happened.

Minister for Defence – Replacement replenishment vessels
6 May 2016

The Government has signed contracts with Navantia S.A. to build Australia’s two replacement replenishment ships, avoiding a critical capability gap.

Australia’s current supply ship HMAS Success will reach its end of life in 2021 and needs to be replaced as a matter of priority.

As part of the $640 million contract with Navantia more than $130 million will go to Australian industry.

Local industry activity will include Combat and Communication Systems integration, Integrated Logistics Support, and elements of the onboard cranes.

In addition an initial $250 million, five-year sustainment contract also signed with Navantia will be undertaken in Australia.

The Turnbull Government is committed to a continuous build of major naval surface ships in Adelaide beginning with the 12 Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) in 2018 and the nine Future Frigates in 2020. The 12 Future Submarines will also be built in Adelaide. Together these programs will secure more than 3600 jobs in the shipbuilding industry and thousands more across the supply chain.

Australian shipyards simply do not have the capacity to complete the replenishment vessels in the required time and a local build would delay the OPVs, Future Frigates and Future Submarines thereby risking those jobs and capability.

The Government has also signed a $280 million contract with Austal to construct up to 21 steel-hulled Pacific Patrol Boats in Western Australia. Support and sustainment of the boats will be conducted in Cairns, Queensland, and is estimated at more than $400 million across the life of the vessels.

The Coalition Government’s demonstrated commitment to the Australian shipbuilding industry is in stark contrast to the inaction of the Labor Party, whereby they failed to commission even one naval ship from an Australian shipyard during six years in power.

So Russ, will we be seeing you building replenishment ship models to join the AWDs?

Incidentally, the two ships will be delivered earlier than the original 2020/21, 2023/24 dates. At Friday's estimates hearings Navy stated the first ship would now be delivered in 2019 followed by the second in 2020, with IOC in 2021 and FOC in 2022. It suggests that Success is in a worse state than previously suggested, plus Sirius has never been more than a glorified civilian tanker, especially as most birdies don't like even doing Vertrep off that tacked on platform at the stern, let alone trying to land on it.

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

A note on astern refuelling.
The rig should be kept (wouldn't be a huge $ issue/saving to delete it) as it gives flexibility in operations. In 1982 in the South Atlantic, the RN frequently had to use that method, not because it was too dangerous to refuel abeam (the whole enterprise was a tad 'Dangerous'), but because it was sometimes impossible to conduct abeam due to the weather conditions.
Added to the facts that some STUFT Tankers (Ships Taken Up From Trade) were fitted with the necessary rig to enable them to refuel other vessels (easier to fit than beam gear) using the astern method, and also the requirement to refuel other STUFT in that way due to their total lack of ANY RAS gear regardless of the Seastate, and you have a good reason to retain the gear and capability.
It's fine to call Endex in local waters and head for Port because of the inabilty to refuel safely due to Green Seas, but when you are thousands of miles from home, in Hostile waters, battling through bad weather, becoming dangerously unstable with a tasking in hand, astern refuelling just might be the ticket.

Incidentially, I'm not sure about the Huons, but the Armidales have a refuelling point on the Foredeck for taking fuel in that way, having no other rig.

Nige
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by RussF172 »

Mike, already done the NDA for it so hopefully will be hearing and seeing drawings etc soon. They have a nice new office in Canberra with only two models in it. One of the proposed SEA 5000 ANZAC replacement which I did some work on early this year as the builder in Argentina got it all wrong so I had to fix it and the model of the AWD, LHD and tanker doing a RAS. It is only a small model so they want something a little more substantial to show off to the Canberra locals.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

Couldn't you push to have an Anzac refuelling astern Russ, just like might have to be conducted in a War? :gunsb:

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by RussF172 »

The trouble with astern refueling (I've done it once) is that it is slow. Ships virtually come to a stop to hook up and then can proceed at a slow speed whilst refueling is done. Also only fuel can be transferred. Most of the time now, not only fuel is transferred at one station during the RAS, but then stores, ammo or aviation fuel is transferred at another station. FFGs seem to at most times transfer fuel at their aft station (top of the hanger- station 7 or 8 I think) and stores etc are transferred up forward at station 1 or 2 in front of the bridge and they can do it at speed. Most times greater than 12 knots. This speed makes the ships less vulnerable to sub or air attack. I've seen a Jackstay transfer done at 22 knots. They can break away in less than 30 seconds and be in a defensive posture ready to fight very quickly. They can also change course relatively easily whilst refueling side by side. Most ships these days don't have the facilities to refuel by the astern method. FFGs can't as all their fueling gear is two decks up from the main deck and behind the bridge so no way to hook up hoses. The LHDs can't either as their only refueling spot is in front of the island or in a small opening half way along the ships side on the starboard side.

I just noticed in one of the photos above that it appears that the German ship is fueling astern from the CANTABRIA. I have got to doubt if they are actually passing any fuel at that speed. The drag on the hose at any sort of speed as well as the weight of the fuel in the line would cause it to sink down increasing the strain on the hose connections.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

RussF172 wrote:I just noticed in one of the photos above that it appears that the German ship is fueling astern from the CANTABRIA. I have got to doubt if they are actually passing any fuel at that speed. The drag on the hose at any sort of speed as well as the weight of the fuel in the line would cause it to sink down increasing the strain on the hose connections.
Yes, probably just proving the capability by both ships (and navies) without actually transferring anything.

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

Details revealed on Navantia's design, steel-cutting for the RAN tanker programme

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Spain's replenishment tanker SPS Cantabria, pictured here sailing off Jervis Bay, Australia en route to the RAN's international fleet review celebrations in Sydney Harbour in October 2013. At the time, the ship was on secondment to the RAN

Key Points
RAN reveals design details for new tankers
Steel to be cut on first of the two ships in the second quarter of 2017
Details have emerged on a number of modifications being introduced to the design of the Royal Australian Navy's (RAN's) new replenishment ships, to be built by Spanish state-owned shipbuilder Navantia.

Under a contract signed in early May 2016, Navantia is to deliver a pair of auxiliary oiler replenishment (AOR) ships based on the design of the Armada Española's auxiliary ship SPS Cantabria . Steel-cutting on the first ship is scheduled for the second quarter of 2017.

The updates will enable "compliance with contemporary international and Australian statutory requirements, classification society regulations, and RAN essential requirements", a RAN spokesperson noted.

Modifications to the Cantabria-class design under Australia's SEA 1654 Phase 3 Maritime Operational Support Capability project will include: the installation of RAN display management and communications systems, adjustments to reflect RAN habitability requirements, and upgrades to meet current environmental requirements such as fitting ballast water treatment plants.

The RAN also highlighted the advantages the new ships will bring, compared with its existing replenishment capabilities. The RAN's current replenishment fleet includes: HMAS Success , a French-designed/Australian-built Durance-class underway replenishment tanker that was commissioned in 1986; and HMAS Sirius , a South Korean-built commercial tanker that was converted into a military tanker in 2006 as an interim replacement for the replenishment oiler HMAS Westralia .

While Sirius has twice the liquid cargo capacity of Success , it "has very limited capacity to carry and transfer solid cargo, and cannot carry explosive ordnance or a helicopter" the RAN spokesperson said.

"The new AORs will provide significantly more capability than the two current vessels, providing capacity to support both Australian and allied naval forces, " said the spokesperson.
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by RussF172 »

Just waiting on the plans from NAVANTIA. I haven't talked them in 72 scale unfortunately, only 1:100 scale for their models. I am quite sure there will be a 72 scale hull done locally :D .
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by MikeJames »

RussF172 wrote:Just waiting on the plans from NAVANTIA. I haven't talked them in 72 scale unfortunately, only 1:100 scale for their models. I am quite sure there will be a 72 scale hull done locally :D .
Here's hoping, I've always admired the Cantabria design.

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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by littoralcombat »

Certainly pleasing to the eye, any idea yet as to what they will be named?
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Re: Navy's new replenishment ships

Post by glenhowells »

I will put one to you Supply may be

Cheers Glen
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