RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

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RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 18 Apr 2016 14:20

Malcolm Turnbull says 12 offshore patrol vessels to be built in Adelaide
By political reporter Stephanie Anderson
ABC News

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed Adelaide will be home to the early construction of 12 offshore patrol vessels.

Mr Turnbull said the build, along with 21 Pacific patrol boats and the nine future frigates previously announced, would create more than 2,500 jobs "for decades to come".

Construction of the vessels will begin in Adelaide in 2018, before shifting to Western Australia in 2020 when the future frigate construction begins in the South Australian capital.

Mr Turnbull said three designers had been shortlisted for the offshore patrol vessels, one from the Netherlands and two from Germany.

"This program is estimated to be worth more than $3 billion and will create over 400 direct jobs," he said.

Former prime minister Tony Abbott announced in August last year that work on the next fleet of offshore patrol vessels would be "centred on SA".

Mr Turnbull also confirmed that three designers — BAE Systems with the Type 26 Frigate, Fincantieri with the FREMM Frigate, and Navantia with a redesigned F100 — had been shortlisted for the construction of the future frigates, which will also be built in Adelaide.

"This program is estimated to be worth more than $35 billion and will directly create over 2,000 jobs," he said.

ENDS

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Really surprised to see the Type 26 there, the Royal Navy has already complained that they are too expensive and have started looking at an alternative, cheaper, less capable design, the Type 31, to supplement the few Type 26s they are likely to build.

The RN was initially looking at 12-14 Type 26 frigates to replace the current Type 23 Duke class, they are now talking about ordering 8, maybe. The time frame for the Type 26 has also blown out, with the first ships not joining the RN until the mid-2020s.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby phillip08 » 18 Apr 2016 15:48

Thanks for the speedy update Mike, one question that always gets my goat with DMO when they talk dollars or supply them to others to release - are the 12 new OPV's going to cost us a quarter of a billion dollars each which is how they are being presented or are they talking the whole of life cost over 30-35 years of service. Steel is very cheap and will be for a long time so the new OPV's must has a very up spec set of weapons & electronics plus running MH60S Helicopters?

In the Defence Pink Book which is not released to the public (this is the expenditure document approved by cabinet each year that covers capital and operating expenditure of the ADF for the next year and covers commitments for future capital outlays), they always quote two numbers one is the projected built costs - the other is operating costs for each future and existing major hardware item or groups of items, costs of exercises, the running of establishments, active services cost projections etc. for all three services.

It will be interesting to see what the real build costs will be?

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby RussF172 » 18 Apr 2016 15:50

A little more info on the companies put forward particularly for the OPVs.

Offshore Patrol Vessels

First pass approval for the Offshore Patrol Vessels, with construction to begin in Adelaide from 2018, following the completion of the Air Warfare Destroyers and transfer to Western Australia when the Future Frigate construction begins in Adelaide in 2020. This approach ensures that jobs and skills are retained in Adelaide.
As part of the Competitive Evaluation Process three designers have been shortlisted; Damen of the Netherlands, Fassmer of Germany, and Lurssen of Germany to refine their designs.
This program is estimated to be worth more than $3 billion and will create over 400 direct jobs.

Future Frigates

First pass approval for the Future Frigates. Three designers – BAE Systems with the Type 26 Frigate; Fincantieri with the FREMM Frigate, and Navantia with a redesigned F100 – have been short-listed to refine their designs. The frigates will all be built in Adelaide, incorporating the Australian-developed CEA Phased-Array Radar.
The Competitive Evaluation Process is on schedule to return second pass approval in 2018, which will allow for construction to commence in Adelaide in 2020.
This program is estimated to be worth more than $35 billion, and will directly create over 2000 jobs.

Pacific Patrol Boats

Combined first and second pass approval for the replacement Pacific Patrol Boats. Austal Ships Pty Ltd has been selected as the preferred tenderer to construct and maintain up to twenty-one replacement steel-hulled Pacific Patrol Boats in Henderson, Western Australia.
Subject to negotiations, this program is estimated to be worth more than $500 million and will directly create over 130 jobs.
Austal proposes to conduct support of the replacement Pacific Patrol Boats including deep maintenance from Cairns, Queensland. In total, through-life support and sustainment (including deep maintenance) for the Pacific Patrol Boats is valued at a further $400 million over the life of the boats.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 19 Apr 2016 07:51

It should be noted that the decision to select Austal was based on the requirement that the Pacific Patrol Boat replacements be steel, not aluminum.

Austal has a long track record of aluminium-hulled vessels, steel-hulled warships are a new capability for them.

The Navy has issues with aluminium-hulled vessels after their experiences with the Armidale class (and yes, I know Austal claims it's partly Navy's fault for their specifications and pounding the ships too hard on Op Relex).

That said it was Navy who had the issues, it was Navy who made the call and if Austal wanted the work, the requirement would be steel.

After all it's the customer's money and the customer is 'always' right.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 10 May 2016 20:41

A couple of images of Navatia's proposed new frigate design, based on the F100 frigate hull, giving it basically the same hull as our Air Warfare Frigates.

Image

Image

If you order the hull now you could have one in the water well before the project gets to selecting a winner.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 10 May 2016 20:50

Shots of the proposed Royal Navy Type 26.

Image

Image

Image

Really surprised it made the short-list. The Royal Navy has been told that the Type 26 is too expensive for them to buy more than a handful of and that they need to find a new, cheaper frigate design, already designated the Type 31.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 10 May 2016 21:12

The final contender is the Italian version of the FREMM (Fregata Europea Multi-Missione). To be honest while it looks nice, all sharp lines and such, as a warship its pretty underwhelming.

Image

The Italian vessel is fitted with a 16 cell VLS, a 76mm gun, 1 x 40mm, 2 x 25mm cannon, 8 x SSM amd 2 x triple torpedo tubes. Basically it's a repeat Anzac Class trading a smaller gun for the benefit of a double hangar. The 76mm gun is a good self defence weapon but not much more, it can't do shore bombardment or long range fire, given it has a maximum range of 16km and an effective range of 8km.

Image

The issue is that the RAN could have significantly improved upon what it already has in service, at least doubling the VLS to 32 cells, fitting a strike length VLS to allow SM-6 surface to air missiles and land attack cruise missiles and providing the same 5 inch guns in service on the Hobart Class.

Image

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 11 May 2016 08:26

Mike

Looking at the AWD in frigate mode wondering what the main differences are . Looks like the mast is shorter wondering what else?

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby rritchie71 » 11 May 2016 11:01

The Fremm’s in their because of its ASW capabilities. Whilst I agree over the gun, that’s a simple change out, as the general purpose version of the Fremm (same hull) has a 127mm gun, they also have the capability to double their VLS, like us, they are fitted for but not with.

If you are going to be out front and tasked with going on the hunt for submarines, it’s the best in the business at the moment, China has over 80 submarines, more than all the Australasian navies combined. So besides the towed array and two helo’s, it has been engineered to be as silent as possible so it is harder for a submarine to detect than any other surface platform.

Sure you can use an Arleigh Burke or F100 in ASW, bolt on a few pieces of kit and off you go, but these ships have been designed from the ground up to be AAW platforms. For them to be as quiet as a purpose built ASW platform like the Fremm, would mean a complete engineering re-design of the ship, what propulsion is used, where it is placed in the hull, silencing in compartments and what weight is put where, because that effects the role of the ship in sea’s which produces noise that a submarine can hear etc, etc.

So whilst who knows which one will be picked, each design will be there for a specific reason that appeals to the RAN. The question is which one carries the most weight with the powers that be.


Robert
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 16 May 2016 12:43

Timeframes

The OPV and Frigate timeframes have broken cover and are out in the open.

OPVs

Defence are about to go into contract with the three down selected proponents to undertake the risk reduction and the design studies. That is the next phase which will close in December 2016. Defence will then go through a process of an Request For Tenders for acquisition to be released in January 2017. That will close in June 2017.

Then we will go through an Offer Definition Activity in the third quarter of 2017, if required. That would only be if Defence ended up with a process where they need to run two designs off against each other, which is considered unlikely, but stranger things have happened.

Defence expects to go back to government for a second pass in the third quarter of 2017, a contract signature in the fourth quarter of 2017, and then into a commencement of construction in 2018.

Frigates

July 2016: Defence expects that the risk reduction and design studies and the RFT will be released to the three down selected proponents.
August 2016: The request for tender and the release for design and build
August 2016: Commencing the risk reduction design studies.
December 2016: Project update to government.
June 2017: A down select to government, basically selecting a single design.
December 2017: a radar update to government. This is in respect of the selection of the combat system, the integrator and potentially the cooperative engagement — that part of the frigate. There are two parts to this: there is the build of the actual vessel and there is the combat system and communications.

Defence expects to go back to government for a second pass in the second quarter of 2018, a contract signature in the forth quarter of 2018 and then into a commencement of construction in 2020.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby cootafleet » 18 May 2016 12:54

When does a DESTROYER become a FRIGATE and a FRIGATE become a DESTROYER ? Always wondered.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 18 May 2016 13:12

cootafleet wrote:When does a DESTROYER become a FRIGATE and a FRIGATE become a DESTROYER ? Always wondered.
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Yes - like to know too..

Along with, when in a contemporary sense did Destroyers become predominantly about Air Warfare and frigates ASW?

And is the only difference between the AWD and the Navantia Frigate proposal - two hangers for ASW helos, and a massive towed sonar array?
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 18 May 2016 14:37

The real answer is when it's politically expedient.

The Hobart class are air warfare frigates, so designated by the company that designed them (Navantia) and the Navy that operates them (Spain).

They were designated destroyers here, as if they were replacements for the Perth class DDGs, even though it's been well over a decade since they paid off. In actual fact they are replacements for Adelaide, Canberra and Sydney.

The destroyer category in much of the rest of this part of the world seems to be retained for the Arleigh Burke's, Japan's Kongo and Atago classes, South Korea's Sejong the Great class, China's Luyang class, Russia's Udaloy and Sovremmenny classes and India's Delhi class, most of which of which are primarily anti-air warfare ships.

The exception is the Udaloy, which is primarily an ASW vessel. In most of the other navy's in this part of the world frigate is the preferred designation for ASW ships.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 18 May 2016 14:55

SlatsSSN wrote:
cootafleet wrote:And is the only difference between the AWD and the Navantia Frigate proposal - two hangers for ASW helos, and a massive towed sonar array?


Key differences, besides the ones you have identified, are that instead of the SPY radars and the AEGIS system of the Hobart class the frigates will have a derivation of the CEA-Far radar system as fitted to the refitted Anzacs, possibly with a SAAB combat system..

The ship is designed to have the same crew as an Anzac class, so about 160, as opposed to the Hobart's 190-200.

I understand that while the design isn't yet final (subject to the customer's wish list) the ASW variant has a 36 cell tactical length VLS (Harpoon SSM, Standard-2 SAM and quad pack VL Sea Sparrow) as opposed to the Hobart classes 48 cell strike length VLS which can accommodate Tomahawk and the long-range Standard SM-6 SAM (as well as anything in the tactical length VLS mount)

I would expect that the proposed frigate would have improved silencing arrangements, but as it is still in final design phase the eventual fit out is subject to change.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby cootafleet » 18 May 2016 16:01

On the same DESTROYER/FRIGATE topic, WW2 Q class were DESTROYERS but when rebuilt with ASW gear they were called FRIGATES.
The US SPRUANCE class were DESTROYERS yet the TICO's with virtually the same hull are CRUISERS. :hlp:
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby BsHvyCgn9 » 18 May 2016 16:33

cootafleet wrote:On the same DESTROYER/FRIGATE topic, WW2 Q class were DESTROYERS but when rebuilt with ASW gear they were called FRIGATES.
The US SPRUANCE class were DESTROYERS yet the TICO's with virtually the same hull are CRUISERS. :hlp:
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The SPRUANCE class was designed as Subhunter (ASW) and got the DD designation instead of DDG that AAW like the KIDD class destroyers got, the TICONDEROGA was a stopgap design to get AEGIS into service relatively quickly...when they decided the AEGIS CGN42s would be too expensive...

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 18 May 2016 21:01

Good topic guys...


Mike in your view do you consider that Navantia has any chance - given that last year it was ruled out and now like the T26 its back in?
Also I would have thought building the same hull (as the AWDs) would be a key selling point for Navantia, arguing economies of commonality being somewhat extensively the same for the non war fighting bits of the machinery and hull and some of the weps and sensors too. Thoughts?

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby rritchie71 » 18 May 2016 21:47

cootafleet wrote:When does a DESTROYER become a FRIGATE and a FRIGATE become a DESTROYER ? Always wondered.
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It used to be dictated by displacement and gun armament. Now it is about sensors and command and control capability.

That is the defining difference why our version was classified a destroyer as I understand it. Ours is designed to be able to go to sea and control other ships weapons and have their sensors feedback to it so the surface action group commander can literally run the battle from this ship, a frigate does not have the capacity to do this. If you look at the Spanish version and ours, you will quickly see ours carries far more sensors, in fact ours has more sensors than an Arleigh Burke, and more weapons than a Type 45 and importantly it has the Co-operative engagement fit out and flag facilities (although Type 45 should get this).

It is like the Spruance and Tico example, same hull, but we have lots more pieces of kit.
Although in reality, many ships like the De Zeven Provincien class which are classified as Frigates are just as powerful and capable as a destroyer, so it is a blurry line.

I do not know if the Navantia frigate proposal is a complete internal redesign or just two hangers and a towed array.

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby rritchie71 » 18 May 2016 21:58

Have a look at this comparison and note the total number of medium range AAW missiles (MR-SAM's) that each class can carry, that line gives a good perspective because you do not need to know what the different sensors do in the other lines..
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby RussF172 » 19 May 2016 10:44

Thanks Robert, that is a good comparison chart. They'll have to update the Arleigh Burke as they are now being fitted (I know CHURCHILL does) with IRST and EOST and some are now being backfitted with SPQ-9 RADAR. They obviously have seen the hole in their fit and are remedying it. Cheers.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 19 May 2016 11:36

Agree - good chart - but also a tad out of date / inaccurate from the get go for the Type 45s.

All the Type 45s were fitted for but not with Harpoon. Duncan D37 (the last of the six just missed out on being commissioning with them fitted).

Four of the Six Type 45 has / will been upgraded for Harpoon. These are:
Daring D32, Diamond D34, Dragon D35, Duncan D37.
Dauntless D33, and Defender D36, are not slotted to have them at all.

Also, all Type 45's were built for but not with cruise missile capability. They have the room to accommodate a strike length VLS capability of 16 tubes for TLAM, LRASM, the latter being a long range anti-ship missile. Furthermore the T45's were fitted with the ability to drop in 2 blocks of 8 cells of the Sylver A70 launcher tubes for Storm Shadow cruise missile.

As the UK's Defence budget dwindles, it will be interesting to see what the T26 and the lighter T31 will look like and indeed how much more "fitted for not with" occurs. The UK would have been better off ditching the QE class ambitions which is sucking their budget dry, ditching the JSF for them, and holding on to the latest Harrier technology on a platform like the new Cavour class. They could have had three Cavours for one QE class.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 19 May 2016 13:44

SlatsSSN wrote:As the UK's Defence budget dwindles, it will be interesting to see what the T26 and the lighter T31 will look like and indeed how much more "fitted for not with" occurs. The UK would have been better off ditching the QE class ambitions which is sucking their budget dry, ditching the JSF for them, and holding on to the latest Harrier technology on a platform like the new Cavour class. They could have had three Cavours for one QE class.


Easy post first.

The size of the QE class was set when the decision was made to operate CATOBAR (Catapult Take Off But Arrested Landing) aircraft. That was partly as BAe was proposing operating Typhoon from them instead of the Royal Navy buying either CATOBAR F35Cs or potentially Super Hornets. Of course the Fench wanted the RN to operate Rafales, of course. The air wing would have also included Hawkeye AWACS aircraft and Greyhound Carrier On Board Delivery aircraft, both of which are CATOBAR.

Eventually the decision was made to move to a VSTOL design, F35Bs, with Merlin helo's carrying out the AWACS duties and most likely a limited number of Osprey's used for the COD role, though I understand there is a discussion underway about using the V22 for the AWACS and tanker roles as well.

Unfortunately by the time the decision was made to change to VSTOL ops, the size of the carrier was pretty much set, so the RN ended up with several very large carriers with air wings that are almost a joke for the size of the ships, the usual group will be 12 F35s and four helicopters. In a crisis the RN says they could operate up to 36 F35s, though where exactly they would be coming from is anyone's guess as the RN is only getting a total of 48 aircraft to spread across both carriers. The UK MOD claims they would be supplemented by the RAF's own F35B models, but no order for these aircraft has yet been made, in fact some claim that the aircraft may never be operated by the RAF as they try and save money to keep buying Typhoons.

Of course, that points out the key issue, the UK doesn't seem to want to fund a defence force that is in line with their global ambitions to 'punch above our weight' as British politicians keep saying. For example, the UK spends 2.0% of their GDP on defence, a total of US$56 billion, off of a population of 65 million people. Australia spends 1.8% of GDP US$25 billion off a 24 million person population, 1.8% of GDP though the current government has committed to lift that to 2%.

Given the UK maintains aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, a nuclear arsenal built around ballistic missile subs and a 'buy British' defence procurement program (even though the results have often been late, grossly expensive and less effective than alternatives, see Nimrod AEW, Type 45 destroyer, Nimrod ASW and the Typhoon) the results have been ever less bang for the buck.

This has resulted in ever fewer ships, with older classes replaced by smaller numbers. Yes the Type 45 is a better AAW platform than the Type 42 destroyers they replaced, but there are only six Type 45 destroyers to replace 14 Type 42 destroyers.

Mike
Last edited by MikeJames on 24 Nov 2017 09:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 19 May 2016 14:36

SlatsSSN wrote:Good topic guys...


Mike in your view do you consider that Navantia has any chance - given that last year it was ruled out and now like the T26 its back in?
Also I would have thought building the same hull (as the AWDs) would be a key selling point for Navantia, arguing economies of commonality being somewhat extensively the same for the non war fighting bits of the machinery and hull and some of the weps and sensors too. Thoughts?

Cheers J


This is my personal opinion only, I've heard comments from others but I must stress this is my personal opinion.

I believe the contest has been stacked in favour of the Navantia offering and that the two alternative designs were selected to fail.

The Type 26 is a potentially good ship, but it doesn't exist and the parent country has already said that it is too expensive and the RN must find a smaller, cheaper alternative. The contract was awarded in 2010, for 13 vessels, now the first ship will not enter service until 2023 (possibly later) and only eight and possibly six ships will be delivered. The RN has been told that they will need to look at a smaller, cheaper ship, the Type 31 to replace some or most of the Type 26 vessels. If the RN can't afford them, then the RAN must be wondering about the final cost.

The FREMM is a smaller design that doesn't deliver much improvement over the Anzac frigates apart from a welcome increase in ASW capability. Italy has ordered 10 ships but only 4 are the ASW variant being offered to us.

The big question is why several significantly more capable ships that were submitted to the contest were completely ignored. In particular the German F125 class (in service) and the Danish Iver Huitfield class (also in service) and if the Italian FREMM was acceptable why was the French FREMM not?

Given two of the three selected designs are not in service, there should have been no reason several other proposed designs were not included, but they weren't, however the Navantia design was, interesting

I believe the decision to go with the Navantia design will be made on the fact that it would be a continuation of the AWD build, leveraging off the existing experience on a very similar ship, plus it will incorporate elements of the Spanish Navy's F110 program which is looking at a replacement for their Navy's FFGs on a slightly later timeframe.

Image

Image

Again, that's just my opinion.

Mike
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 19 May 2016 15:14

MikeJames wrote:
Easy post first.

The size of the QE class was set when the decision was made to operate CATOBAR (Catapult Take Off But Arrested Landing) aircraft. That was partly as BAe was proposing operating Typhoon from them instead of the Royal Navy buying either CATOBAR F35Cs or potentially Super Hornets. Of course the Fench wanted the RN to operate Rafales, of course. The air wing would have also included Hawkeye AWACS aircraft and Greyhound Carrier On Board Delivery aircraft, both of which are CATOBAR.

Eventually the decision was made to move to a VSTOL design, V35Bs, with Merlin helo's carrying out the AWACS duties and most likely a limited number of Osprey's used for the COD role, though I understand there is a discussion underway about using the V22 for the AWACS and tanker roles as well.

Unfortunately by the time the decision was made to change to VSTOL ops, the size of the carrier was pretty much set, so the RN ended up with several very large carriers with air wings that are almost a joke for the size of the ships, the usual group will be 12 F35s and four helicopters. In a crisis the RN says they could operate up to 36 F35s, though where exactly they would be coming from is anyone's guess as the RN is only getting a total of 48 aircraft to spread across both carriers. The UK MOD claims they would be supplemented by the RAF's own F35B models, but no order for these aircraft has yet been made, in fact some claim that the aircraft may never be operated by the RAF as they try and save money to keep buying Typhoons.

Of course, that points out the key issue, the UK doesn't seem to want to fund a defence force that is in line with their global ambitions to 'punch above our weight' as British politicians keep saying. For example, the UK spends 2.0% of their GDP on defence, a total of US$56 billion, off of a population of 65 million people. Australia spends 1.8% of GDP US$25 billion off a 24 million person population, 1.8% of GDP though the current government has committed to lift that to 2%.

Given the UK maintains aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, a nuclear arsenal built around ballistic missile subs and a 'buy British' defence procurement program (even though the results have often been late, grossly expensive and less effective than alternatives, see Nimrod AEW, Type 45 destroyer, Nimrod ASW and the Typhoon) the results have been ever less bang for the buck.

This has resulted in ever fewer ships, with older classes replaced by smaller numbers. Yes the Type 45 is a better AAW platform than the Type 42 destroyers they replaced, but there are only six Type 45 destroyers to replace 14 Type 42 destroyers.

Mike


Thanks - seems like the RN is a real mess, and that the QE class if re-assessed now with CATOBAR off the table would not be happening.

Quite a key point too is replacement numbers - 6 Type 45's can't be in the places that 14 Type 42's once occupied. The same goes for the Frigate numbers too.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby SlatsSSN » 19 May 2016 15:16

MikeJames wrote:
This is my personal opinion only, I've heard comments from others but I must stress this is my personal opinion.

I believe the contest has been stacked in favour of the Navantia offering and that the two alternative designs were selected to fail.

The Type 26 is a potentially good ship, but it doesn't exist and the parent country has already said that it is too expensive and the RN must find a smaller, cheaper alternative. The contract was awarded in 2010, for 13 vessels, now the first ship will not enter service until 2023 (possibly later) and only eight and possibly six ships will be delivered. The RN has been told that they will need to look at a smaller, cheaper ship, the Type 31 to replace some or most of the Type 26 vessels. If the RN can't afford them, then the RAN must be wondering about the final cost.

The FREMM is a smaller design that doesn't deliver much improvement over the Anzac frigates apart from a welcome increase in ASW capability. Italy has ordered 10 ships but only 4 are the ASW variant being offered to us.

The big question is why several significantly more capable ships that were submitted to the contest were completely ignored. In particular the German F125 class (in service) and the Danish Iver Huitfield class (also in service) and if the Italian FREMM was acceptable why was the French FREMM not?

Given two of the three selected designs are not in service, there should have been no reason several other proposed designs were not included, but they weren't, however the Navantia design was, interesting

I believe the decision to go with the Navantia design will be made on the fact that it would be a continuation of the AWD build, leveraging off the existing experience on a very similar ship, plus it will incorporate elements of the Spanish Navy's F110 program which is looking at a replacement for their Navy's FFGs on a slightly later timeframe.

Image

Image

Again, that's just my opinion.

Mike


Makes sense -would keep the local builders happy too.
J
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby rritchie71 » 28 May 2016 10:29

rritchie71 wrote:The Fremm’s in their because of its ASW capabilities.
If you are going to be out front and tasked with going on the hunt for submarines, it’s the best in the business at the moment, China has over 80 submarines, more than all the Australasian navies combined. So besides the towed array and two helo’s, it has been engineered to be as silent as possible so it is harder for a submarine to detect than any other surface platform.

Sure you can use an Arleigh Burke or F100 in ASW, bolt on a few pieces of kit and off you go, but these ships have been designed from the ground up to be AAW platforms. For them to be as quiet as a purpose built ASW platform like the Fremm, would mean a complete engineering re-design of the ship, what propulsion is used, where it is placed in the hull, silencing in compartments and what weight is put where, because that effects the role of the ship in sea’s which produces noise that a submarine can hear etc, etc.


Robert


An update in the Australian news paper, interesting about the F100 and the FREMM. Sounds like they are doing it properly, commonality between ships would have to be a big driver overall, although I hope it comes second to capability, and in the end if they cannot convert the F100 design to achieve what they want, then they have the proven FREMM in the mix.

The RAN’s top-tier requirements include task-force-level anti-submarine warfare, a stand-off maritime strike capability able to be fully integrated into a tri-service “joint fires network’’, and task-force air defence and task-group anti-ship-missile defence.
Other requirements include accommodation for at least one MH-60R helicopter and unspecified unmanned aerial vehicles, mandated use of the long-range radar suite under development by Canberra-based CEA, “consideration” of the Saab 9LV combat-management system deployed on the Anzac class and the two Canberra class landing helicopter docks (LHDs) and an efficient propulsion system, presumably electric, to reduce the ship’s acoustic signature and cost of ownership.

Navantia - Government-funded engineering studies completed last September confirmed that modifications to the design of the 7000-tonne F-100 air warfare destroyers (AWDs) under construction for the RAN would make it possible to meet Sea 5000 requirements, potentially easing the transition to future frigate construction.
Asked to look at 18 areas of potential change, Navantia responded with 117 options and three possible configurations that met mandated requirements.
The company says the resulting ship would benefit from more than 75 per cent of systems commonality with the AWDs, about 40 per cent with the Anzac class, and about 30 per cent with the LHDs.

FREMM - According to Fincantieri, the anti-submarine-warfare variant of its in-service 6600-tonne Bergamini class FREMM frigate would not need modification of its general hull configuration. The ship has twin helicopter hangars.
Fincantieri has delivered four FREMMs, has four more in production and another two to build, and emphasises the support that would be available to the RAN with a family of 19 vessels.


TYPE 26 - BAE Systems describes its global combat ship as a highly-capable and versatile multi-mission warship of about 7000 tonnes, designed to support anti-submarine warfare, air defence and general purpose operations.
Although the design of the global combat ship — the export variant of the Type 26 frigate destined for the Royal Navy — may be fully mature, the ship is not yet in service. Steel cutting seems likely to begin in late 2017.

All three contenders are about twice the displacement of the 3500- tonne Anzacs. Whichever is selected will provide — with the exception of the Aegis combat system — a capability close to that of the Hobart class AWDs.

Robert
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MichaelB » 21 Dec 2016 13:15

An Italian Navy FREMM frigate will visit Australia in January and February and hold exercises with the Australian Navy in the wake of the type’s short listing for acquisition by Australia.

The promotional tour, which is backed by Fincantieri, the ship’s builder, will include stops in Fremantle, Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne, Italian Navy officials said on Dec. 16.
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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby fastone045 » 22 Dec 2016 12:24

Not a bad looking ship, except for the forward mast

aa.jpg

ab1.jpg

ac.jpg

ad.jpg

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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby MikeJames » 22 Dec 2016 12:47

fastone045 wrote:Not a bad looking ship, except for the forward mast


Fear not, their proposed version for the RAN has a different mast, incorporating the Australian CEA-Far radar system

Mike


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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Postby glenhowells » 22 Dec 2016 21:17

Hi mike that mast looks like poo

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