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Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 23 Dec 2016 08:39
by MikeJames
Get used to it, that's what the eventual winner will be fitted with, no matter the winning design they will all be required to integrate CEA-Far.

Phased array radars are the shape of the future.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 23 Dec 2016 21:31
by glenhowells
I Here Mike
It just looks odd with a more traditional main mast then the dunce cap foremast. I still think the Navantia design is the better out of the lot.
Cheers Glen

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 24 Dec 2016 08:40
by littoralcombat
I suspect the Navantia option is top of the pile anyway, if for no other reasons than to allow the Shipbuilders to construct something familiar to them, commonality of machinery and of course crew training/operation. (Oh, and they will all look very 'purdy' moored up alongside the AWD's ;) , everything neat, tidy and shipshape)
Call me a cynic, but I think it's a little akin to if you are a fan of the Red (Holden) or the Blue (Ford), then you never change regardless of what the opposition offers. Seems we are firmly in the Yellow/Red camp now :yes:
Anyone for another glass of Sangria? :lol1:

(And for the record Glen, I also think the Dunce's cap looks like pants, regardless of requirement or functionality.......just my opinion)

All the best, Nige(ria) :?:

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 24 Dec 2016 19:13
by rritchie71
We will have to monitor that, it would be great to get a look over it when it comes over.

Just say what you think Glen.... :D


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 24 Dec 2016 19:33
by BsHvyCgn9
littoralcombat wrote:I suspect the Navantia option is top of the pile anyway, if for no other reasons than to allow the Shipbuilders to construct something familiar to them, commonality of machinery and of course crew training/operation. (Oh, and they will all look very 'purdy' moored up alongside the AWD's ;) , everything neat, tidy and shipshape)
Call me a cynic, but I think it's a little akin to if you are a fan of the Red (Holden) or the Blue (Ford), then you never change regardless of what the opposition offers. Seems we are firmly in the Yellow/Red camp now :yes:
Anyone for another glass of Sangria? :lol1:

(And for the record Glen, I also think the Dunce's cap looks like pants, regardless of requirement or functionality.......just my opinion)

All the best, Nige(ria) :?:

MOPAR or No car! :yes: :yes: Although I have had others....would like another Hemi!! (SRT8 Grand Cherokee.....YUM!)

I think our Govt will choose the worst design possible its just the way they like to do things......and they get to copy the Yanks

Cheers B1

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 24 Dec 2016 19:40
by BsHvyCgn9
I think the FFG design will be Navantia as others have said commonality of build,spares, makes sense (meaning they will go with anything else..)
Personally I think we should be building 12 FFGs not 12 Subs..............


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 14 Feb 2017 13:08
by SlatsSSN
I have been thinking about Mike's earlier question within this thread; - it's a multi-billion dollar question- why the Iver Huitfeldt was knocked out of consideration so early in SEA 5000??

The Dane's built these for $340million a piece, so the 9 Frigates could have been built for much less than a third of the $35bn taxpayers will have to fork out. The Dane's were willing to have them built here / fitted out here / use multiple yards here. The ships are extremely flexible in their design and are built around easier removal / upgrade / and where necessary chop and change the weps configuration. This is one reason why the ships have 2 x 76mm up front one on top of the other - they used guns removed from older ships and installed them for now on the new. The upper gun's module will be eventually replaced with a second Oerlikan Millenium CIWS when the Danes can afford it / feel the need to do so. Switching out gear like this does not involve a refit and can be done with hours alongside.

Given the US weps compatability, the easier accommodation of CEFAR, their patrol range, the fact that one's taking part in a US Carrier Battle group ops and the US have been pleased with them, and the fact that they now like the RAN fly the MH60R's - there should be some explanation to why not these efficient ships weren't considered. Or perhaps this is the case of Navy gets $35bn of taxpayers money allocated and then feels the need to max out our credit card?



Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 15 Feb 2017 08:05
by MikeJames
Defence acquisition is a monumental cluster-frak.

Take self propelled artillery, the Army's wanted it for decades as operating towed artillery against anyone more capable than Taliban-style opponents is signing a death warrant for the gunners operating such systems.

The Army went looking for such systems almost a decade ago and firmed up what they wanted about seven years ago.

The Army was given $450 million to acquire a SPG capability. They laid out the capability they desired and went to the market. I'm quoting an acquaintance of mine who has a much more intimate knowledge of the issues....

The problem was however there was NO capability solution available to do what Army said it must absolutely do.

They wanted a heavy tracked self-propelled howitzer in 155mm capability, with a 52 calibre gun, integrated AFATDS, a remote weapon station mounting an integrated 12.7mm gun and a whole host of other specifications (Excalibur / PGK fuses integration, new racking methods for ammunition, extra armour protection and so on) that Army expected the manufacturers to develop at their own expense all for an order of only 18 guns. Army's position was that the manufacturer of this 'uber gun' could then go and recoup it's cost because obviously there would be an overwhelming demand for such a world leading capability...

The negotiations for this dragged on for so long, as one manufacturer after another pulled out that Government eventually took all of Army's budget away, bought them a bunch of cheap-ass M777A2's towed artillery pieces and the guided fuses, Excalibur and AFATDS and said there you go, make the best of it, while they pissed the bulk of the money on social security programs to buy votes.

So Army instead got no protected fires, no 52Cal barrel and no integrated AFATDS, making do like everybody else in the world with AFATDS on portable workstations...

Problem was, the manufacturers all knew there was no market for such a system, quite the opposite. Most countries involved in artillery recap are buying off the shelf, they aren't looking at pie in the sky, gold plated solutions for miniscule numbers, which is why they are successfully gaining strong, protected fires capability and we aren't, despite having up to 10x the budget available in some cases..

To put this in perspective, the Army had $450 million and couldn't pull their collective head out of their own anuses long enough to acquire the capability. In the end the then-ALP Government took the money and used the bulk of it attempting to buy votes, unsuccessfully as it turned out.

Lithunia was looking for the same capability and acquired German Pnzr2000 SPGs. Cost: : EUR 58.3 million. The money, to be allotted until 2019, has been appropriated for the artillery enhancement project. EUR 16.2 million will be paid to Germany for 53 pieces of military equipment. The rest of the sum (EUR 42.1 million) will be used for modernization of the equipment, installation of battlefield management system and communications and control equipment, for adjusting military infrastructure for the new howitzers and for training personnel to operate them.

The Lithuanian Armed Forces will obtain 21 155mm self-propelled howitzers from the German Armed Forces under the contract. 16 of them will be usable for combat purposes, 2 will be used for training firing and driving skills, and 3 more for spare parts.

AUD$ equivalent = $81.6 million at today's Interbank rate.

This is but one of many, so very many, similar stories.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 06 Apr 2017 15:43
by MikeJames
Posting this summary on the OPV program from someone whose thoughts I respect...

SEA 1180 – The Contenders
With an expectation of a decision in the third quarter of 2017, aiming for a construction start date in 2018, I thought it might be time for a straw poll on the three contenders.

The only publicly discussed criteria that I can find is that in order to achieve the aims of the project:

The vessel will need to be of the order of about 70 – 80 metres. There appears to be no hard limit on this, but obviously the three shortlisted contenders have offerings within this range and displace 1600 – 1850 tons.

There should be little if any modifications to an existing design other than those necessary for compliance with RAN orthodoxy, and meeting other Australian standards.

The vessel is to be aviation capable, with specific mention of the use of unmanned aerial systems and vehicles to fulfill its mission.

Weapon/sensor fit out is to be in keeping with its primarily “constabulary” function.

Fassmer OPV 80 (80.6 metres)
Claimed economy of operation, 2 engines, demonstrated 8000 nm @ 12kts.
(It certainly has a larger fuel capacity)
Claimed endurance 30 days
Basic crew req. 30 (w/o aviation) accom. For 60 including flight crew.
Aviation: Refuelling/small hangar, smallish flight deck, < 10 t mtow, realistically 7 t.

Lurssen OPV 80 (metres)
2 engines, claimed 7500 nm @ ? kts.
Brunei lists an endurance of 21 days (with a crew of 55!)
Crew req. 40 (w/o aviation)
Aviation: Refuelling/no hangar, large flight deck, 11 t mtow

Damen OPV 1800 (83 metres)
4 engines (patrol on 2), claimed 5000 nm @ 12 kts
Claimed endurance 30 days
Crew req. 46 (w/o aviation)
Aviation: Refuelling/large hangar, large flight deck, 11 t miow

Damen OPV 1400 (72 metres)
4 engines, claimed 4000 nm @12 kts
Claimed endurance 25 days
Crew req. 35 (w/o aviation)
Aviation: Refuelling/small hangar, smallish flight deck, < 10 t mtow
(no obvious advantage other than perhaps sail away cost)

There are larger versions available from these contenders, as designs, but I doubt we would go there as costs and crew sizes do go up substantially. Damen offer their “Sea Axe” hull as an option, and while it may be more efficient in terms of speed and fuel, they look like they have the potential to be very wet boats in even the slightest sea with any speed on.

So there they are. All of the first three would meet the project criteria in different ways. Two at least are in service with other navies, one within our region.

Obviously the standout is the aviation area. The Fassmer OPV 80 would be limited to training helos or a new naval type for the RAN. (I do remember Anzacs deploying to the Gulf with a Squirrel in the hangar) It could certainly manage ScanEagle, Schiebel S-100, both versions of Firescout and their successor. If this is okay, it probably has a lot going for it. It is in service, with repeat orders, and has been built in a variety of local yards in the nations that have ordered it. Currently operating in tropical waters (Caribbean), temperate latitudes (Chilean Pacific coast) and in ice-strengthened form, around the south of Chile. So the due diligence is available.

The other two contenders could refuel an SH-60R if necessary, and one, if pressed, could provide it with hangar facilities. As a mission enabler this is potentially pretty big, but must be weighed against how likely. Either way, I would have thought whether helo or UAV, hangar facilities are a big plus. An embarked helo may not be a common occurrence, but as a large out-of-the-elements workshop, training area or with-kit assembly point on an otherwise smallish vessel it should be highly desirable. All three have accommodation for containerized mission equipment and either a stern RHIB ramp or the option thereof.

If it was a beauty contest I think Lurssen would win it. An act of faith in an obviously capable and successful company with a paper project, would win it for Damen. I think it is Fassmer’s to lose, but who knows what alliances and politics will come into play.

Fassmer with Austal (who would have to manage an initial build of 2 vessels in SA for the make-work scheme)

Damen and Lurssen with ASC (SA) and Civmec (WA)

What could possibly go wrong? Any favourites?

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 07 Apr 2017 22:00
by littoralcombat
Interesting balanced piece Mike.
I don't suppose you would be willing to name your source for the sake of credibility :?:

The question of which Helo could/will be carried is probably very relevant. For the record does the RAN still operate Squirrels, and if so, how many?


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 09 Apr 2017 20:12
by MikeJames
littoralcombat wrote:Interesting balanced piece Mike.
I don't suppose you would be willing to name your source for the sake of credibility :?:

The question of which Helo could/will be carried is probably very relevant. For the record does the RAN still operate Squirrels, and if so, how many?


Oh no way, my contacts speak on the very clear knowledge that their real names will never be known.

Some are military, some are industry, all have knowledge of how absolutely fucked up the ADF procurement system is.

The only reassuring thing is that no matter how bad we get it, we can't compete against the world champions in defence procurement cluster-fucks.

The United Kingdom

As for the Squirrels, 723 Squadron operates 13 in the training and utility role.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 09 Apr 2017 20:20
by MikeJames
Damen Shipyards Group Submits Tender for Australian OPV

(Source: Damen Shipyards Group)

Damen Shipyards Group has submitted a tender for the SEA 1180 Phase 1 Project to deliver twelve Offshore Patrol Vessels to the Royal Australian Navy. To demonstrate its commitment to on time and within specification delivery Damen submitted its response early.

Damen has teamed with ASC Forgacs Shipbuilding, a joint venture established to build the initial two ships in South Australia and further 10 in Western Australia, to compete for the foundation project of Australia’s continuous Naval shipbuilding enterprise. The joint venture is already investing in infrastructure at the Henderson Shipbuilding Precinct in Western Australia in preparation for the OPV construction to move to WA.

Damen, with almost 100 vessels operating in Australia already, has extensive experience providing vessels that are suitable for local conditions and is fully committed to the long-term integration with Australian Shipbuilding. Key tenets of the bid include maximising investment in local industries and businesses to establish a long-term capability; investment in the training of a future workforce including those transitioning from other industries; and assisting the Australian Government to prepare to build future frigates and submarines in SA.

The proven Damen design being offered uses innovative technology to improve seakeeping, reduce running costs and decrease whole of life sustainment costs.

Roland Briene, Damen Sales Director Asia Pacific, said: “We are fully committed to maximising Australian industry participation and supporting the development of a sustainable, national shipbuilding industry in Australia. This is fully in line with our standard practices where we partner with local organisations to help transform local shipbuilding industries into globally competitive shipyards. We look forward to working with the Commonwealth to maximise opportunities for Australian industry, drawing on the existing supply chain of our Australian partners, while also providing opportunities for local industry to be involved in our global supply chain supporting more than 70 shipyards around the world.”

Damen Shipyards Group operates 33 shipbuilding and repair yards, employing 9,000 people worldwide. Damen has delivered more than 6,000 vessels in more than 100 countries and delivers some 180 vessels annually to customers worldwide. Based on its unique, standardised ship-design concept Damen is able to guarantee consistent quality.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 09 Apr 2017 20:21
by MikeJames
Germany’s Lurssen Werft proposes building warships in Australia

Lurssen Werft's Darussalam Class corvette, which it built for the Royal Brunei Navy, during naval exercises off Australia.

The Australian
Defence EditorCanberra

A German company bidding to build the navy’s 12 offshore patrol vessels wants to export warships from Australia to regional allies.

The family-owned Lurssen Werft, which has been building ships since the 1870s, is one of three contenders for the OPV project through a version of the *Darussalam Class corvette it built for the Royal Brunei Navy. The project will ultimately be worth more than $3 billion.

The Turnbull government’s plan is to build the first two OPVs in South Australia and the rest in Western Australia, once the building of the navy’s first nine *future frigates begins in South Australia. That is scheduled for 2020. The 12 OPVs will replace the navy’s 13 Armidale Class *patrol boats.

Lurssen chief executive Peter Lurssen told The Australian the corvettes had visited Australia and had exercised with the Royal Australian Navy so their capabilities were well known here. He said that to maintain an indigenous continuous shipbuilding industry, Australia would have to build an export market and Lurssen was well placed to do that.

An option was for the company to partner with WA-based Civmec, Mr Lurssen said. He said he was very impressed with the Henderson Shipbuilding Precinct south of Perth.

Progressively upgrading and modernising the 12 OPVs through their life would provide Lurssen and Australia with the ability to design and build a whole class of replacement vessels in the future.

The other two designers short-listed for the OPV contract are Damen, of The Netherlands, and Fassmer, of Germany.

Damen has teamed with ASC Forgacs Shipbuilding in its bid for the OPV contract. Sales director for the Asia Pacific Roland Briene said his company would invest strongly in local companies and in training a future workforce.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 03 Jul 2017 12:56
by MikeJames
Frigate News

Over AU$2 billon per boat for a frigate, before ASC gets their hands on it and we see the usual 'build in Australia' cost blowouts?

We'd probably end up with ships more expensive than the AWD, begging the question why we just don't build another six or eight AWD instead?

I think that price tag has pretty much killed any chance of the Type 26 for the RAN.


BAE Systems gets green light on $4.9 billion deal from UK for anti-sub warfare frigates
By: Andrew Chuter, July 1, 2017

(Photo Credit: Courtesy of BAE Systems)

LONDON -The British government has given the green light to BAE Systems to build three Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigates in a deal worth around £3.7 billion, or U.S. $4.9 billion (or AU$6.2), Defence Secretary Michael Fallon announced.

The deal is the first batch of a fleet of eight warships due to be handed over to the Royal Navy to replace the current Type 23 frigates for escorting the new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and protecting the nuclear submarine fleet as they come and go from their base in Scotland.

No precise delivery timelines for the new warships have been given by the MoD, but a BAE spokesman said the ship was scheduled to be accepted by the Royal Navy around the mid-2020s.

That would suggest a delay of a couple of years past the original timescale. Previously the two sides had been working towards having the first warship available for operations in 2023, when the first of the Type 23s, HMS Argyll, was due to be pensioned off.

The first of the new aircraft carriers started sea trials last week and is expected to start its first operational deployment in 2021, protected by updated Type 23s.

The Royal Navy had originally been scheduled to receive 13 of the Type 26s, but five of the warships were axed in the 2015 strategic defense and security review. Alternatively, those will eventually be replaced by a new general purpose frigate known as the Type 31. The Type 31 program remains undefined, and industry executives here said there is no real money yet available to get the project underway.

That said, signing of the Type 26 contract after around three years of fierce negotiations over price and terms and conditions might provide a boost for the marine industry here beyond the local market. The deal will reassure potential export buyers the program is going ahead roughly to schedule, said the executives.

Australia and Canada are expected to go forward with a new frigate program in the next few months and the Type 26 is a contender for both requirements.

Commenting on the deal, Fallon said: “The contract is structured to ensure value for taxpayers ’ money and, importantly, now designed to protect them from extra bills from project overrun. The investment will secure hundreds of skilled jobs at BAE Systems on the Clyde for the next 20 years, and thousands of jobs in the supply chain across Britain. ”

The MoD said in a statement the contract was “specifically structured to motivate both sides to deliver to a successful outcome, where both parties share in the pain and gain in the delivery of the programme.”

BAE and Britain’s cash-strapped Ministry of Defence had originally been expected to cut steel on the first of the 6,900 tonne warships around this time last year, but the prolonged negotiations resulted in the deal only being concluded a few weeks ago. The official announcement was held up by last month’s general election.

The delay in completing negotiations has been mitigated by a series of long-lead item contracts to key equipment suppliers and demonstration phase work with BAE to mature the design.

The £3.7 billion price tag for the three ships includes money already spent on long-lead items, ongoing development costs and some infrastructure work being paid for by the MoD at BAE’s two yards in Glasgow, Scotland, where the warships will be built.

In a briefing with reporters last week, executives at Rolls-Royce Marine said the first of three MT30 gas turbines ordered under the long-lead time arrangement had already been delivered to BAE’s Glasgow yards where the warships are to be built.

Rolls-Royce is set to be a major beneficiary of the program. Aside from supplying one MT30 package per warship the company is providing a range of equipment including steering gear, rudders, propellers and mission bay handling systems. Its German subsidiary MTU is supplying diesel generators.

The MoD said the contract for the second batch of five ships is not expected to be negotiated until the early 2020s.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 03 Jul 2017 15:14
by rritchie71
That's an unbelievable cost for a frigate in today's terms.

I'd love to know what the RN is using as a yardstick to determine value. The cost of a single Type 26 in this article is twice the quoted cost to France or Italy (with conversion to Euro) to build a Fremm. Even adding 20% for variances would still not put a Fremm build anywhere near a Type 26


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 03 Jul 2017 19:28
by MichaelB
Probably the cost of updating the yards and keeping the Scots happy. > some infrastructure work being paid for by the MoD at BAE’s two yards in Glasgow, Scotland, where the warships will be built.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Jul 2017 10:42
by MikeJames
‘The Type 26 frigate is a cutting-edge warship, combining the expertise of the British shipbuilding industry with the excellence of the Royal Navy. We will cut steel on the first ship later this month – a hugely significant milestone that delivers on our commitment to maintain our global naval power.' Defence Secretary Sir Michael Fallon said.

A 'cutting edge warship' the Brits can't afford to fit with anti-ship missiles. :no:


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Jul 2017 11:10
by littoralcombat
I know it's not about cosmetics, but it is not the best looking chunk of steel either, IMHO. :(

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Jul 2017 18:30
by MikeJames
I'd wager quite a bit that the final ship will differ signifcantly from that computer generated image.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 07 Jul 2017 15:00
by MikeJames
A little post-addendum to that comment about no anti-ship missiles.

With the removal of Harpoon from Royal Navy service, there is not a single anti-ship missile in service anywhere in the British Armed Forces.

That's right, not a single one anywhere in Her Majesty's Navy, Air Force or Army.

The Brits are pinning their hopes on new missiles that are part of the UK/France JV with MBDA..............IF the RN is lucky, they may see the missile in approx. 3-5 years time, IF they are lucky.

Hope like hell the RN's subs are on hand if they actually have to sink something that might shoot back with anything larger than a machine gun.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 15 Aug 2017 20:11
by MikeJames
Navantia pitches F-5000 design for Future Frigates bid


Navantia Australia has submitted its response to the Commonwealth’s Request for Tender for the Sea 5000 Future Frigate program with what it regards as “a comprehensive plan for a leading edge anti-submarine warfare (ASW) vessel and Australia’s continuous shipbuilding industry”.

The F-5000, an evolution of the soon to be commissioned Navantia-designed Hobart Class DDG, will be designed locally to meet specific requirements of the Royal Australian Navy, and built in Adelaide using expertise, experience and equipment from Australia, according to the company.

With capabilities based on the Hobart Class, the F-5000 also incorporates lessons learnt from the operational requirements of the Navantia designed and built Norwegian F-310 ASW frigate. The F-5000 will also provide operational flexibility and force multiplication by incorporating 48 strike length missile cells, a Mk45 5” gun, an advanced above water sensor suite, and integration of the MH-60R combat helicopter and UAV featured in the F-5000’s design.

Navantia says that incorporating the Navantia-SAGE Automation Group’s (NSAG) Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS), which will already be operated by 1,500 men and women of the Navy across seven existing naval platforms, additional training requirements will be reduced and the Adelaide based NSAG will continue to grow as a key input to capability.

“By using an in service Australian ship as our reference to build the F-5000, we will be ensuring that Australia’s future ASW frigate is able to seamlessly integrate into the RAN’s fleet and provide the savings through economies of scale for shipbuilding, training, maintenance and supply support.” Navantia Australia’s Donato Martínez said.

Navantia Australia board member and former DMO chief executive Warren King said the F-5000 builds on over a decade of ship design and build experience with industry that ensures a low risk, early start for the Australian shipbuilding industry.

“When Navantia first partnered with the Commonwealth on the Hobart Class destroyer, we didn’t have a ship designer, and we didn’t have a shipyard. Now, over a decade since the partnership first began, Navantia Australia has developed the intimate customer knowledge, understanding of Australian industry capability and commitment to building Australia’s own shipbuilding industry.”

In April Navantia Australia managing director Paco Barón told ADM studies had “basically confirmed the AWD platform can undertake Sea 5000 requirements in a very low risk fashion with engineering work we would consider routine”.

At the time, Navantia was analysing any changes to the Commonwealth’s requirements and “was trying to stick to a philosophy of minimum change”, and, according to Barón, the existing design had space and weight margins to provide for the requirements.

He didn’t foresee any change to the AWD hull design and said, “the platform as it is, even in terms of noise signature, is at a very high level of performance”.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 15 Aug 2017 20:12
by MikeJames
BAE submits Global Combat Ship bid for Sea 5000


BAE Systems yesterday announced its submission of the Global Combat Ship variant of the Type 26 frigate design for the Commonwealth's Sea 5000 Future Frigate program.

According to the company, the bid includes its intention to partner with the Government to develop a long-term ship building strategy in Australia for complex warships and to offer a proposal to build nine Anti-Submarine Warfare frigates for the Royal Australian Navy.

BAE Systems commenced manufacture for the first of three Type 26 frigates for the Royal Navy on 20 July.

The campaign is being led by BAE Systems’ global Maritime Business Development director, Nigel Stewart, and the bid was put together by a joint UK and Australian team to ensure the learning and knowledge from the Type 26 program is fully complemented by the maritime skills and expertise of BAE Systems’ team in Australia.

“By combining the formidable capability of our Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigate with the heritage and skills we have in Australia, we are sure we can offer a proposition to the Government that is both transformational and compelling,” Stewart said. “Our commitment is to establish a world class ship building capability in Australia that will build Australian ships with an Australian work force.”

Stewart added the opportunity was unique, as it offered the company a chance to sharing its expertise and experience, transferring embedded knowledge from one market to benefit another.

“In addition, BAE Systems is committed to representing Australia in the global marketplace, helping grow Australia’s export opportunities and opening up new markets for Australian industry through our global supply chain.”

The company sees its “fully bow-to-stern digital design” as a de-risking factor in its construction for the Royal Navy and thinks Australia stands to benefit from the learnings of the Type 26 program.

The UK program has seen lengthy delays, as the UK MoD initally reduced the number of frigates from an original 13 to the present 8 and resisted the signing a full contract until only July of this year (for the first three). Back in March 2010, BAE had signed the £127 million design contract for the Type 26, with the last of the six Type 45 destroyers launching on the Clyde in October of that year.

Only in February 2015 did the MoD sign an £859 million initial development deal on the new design and as late as June 2016 Secretary Fallon had said no deal to build the Type 26 would be signed until the program offered "value for money".

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 28 Sep 2017 20:03
by MikeJames
Future Frigates ‘must be North Korea-proof’

Warren King, a senior adviser to Navantia Australia. Picture: Gary Ramage
The Australian6:30PM September 26, 2017


A major shipbuilder competing for Australia’s $35 billion Future Frigate contract has warned the warships must have the capacity to deal with the emerging threat of North Korea.

Warren King, a Navantia Australia board member, said there had been a “great focus” on anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability but the ships also needed to “meet a whole range of requirements” that might surface over the next three decades.

As the war of words between the North Korean regimen and US President Donald Trump intensifies, Mr King said North Korea had become a “real and apparent (threat) right on our doorstep”.

“One of the questions we need to ask ourselves is whether we acquire a frigate only capable of ASW, or whether for a similar cost, by building on experience, we acquire a frigate with a strong ASW capability which also has built-in general purpose capacity,” Mr King told The Australian.

“Are we making sure that the frigates have a balanced capability to deal with multiple threats that have had a light shone on them by North Korea? As a nation, we are spending a considerable amount of money in acquiring these frigates.”

The plan to buy nine Future Frigates with a strong emphasis on ASW was announced in the 2016 Defence White Paper.

Tensions with North Korea have escalated dramatically since then, with Malcolm Turnbull calling the regime’s nuclear program the “gravest threat to peace” on the peninsula in 60 years.

Malcolm Davis, a senior analyst in defence strategy and capability at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said the government had to “think beyond” the North Korean threat and also focus on China.

He noted a war with North Korea would likely be “over and done with in the space of a few weeks or months” while the threat of a future conflict with China could “last for decades”.

“If they’re not thinking about China as the long-term threat, they should be,” Dr Davis said.

“North Korea is a threat and I think it’s going to be evolving very rapidly and potentially resolved very rapidly … We need to think about how these ships will fare in a future conflict with China rather than North Korea.”

Spanish shipbuilder Navantia is bidding against BAE Systems and Fincantieri to build the frigates.

Navantia sees an opportunity to use the same hull in the ships as it used for its three Hobart Class Air Warfare Destroyers that are fitted with a US air defence missile system known as AEGIS.

Navantia says the AEGIS system could be upgraded to target ballistic missiles.

If it wins the tender, Navantia would closely model the Future Frigates on its Hobart Class warfare destroyer, which has been extensively modified for Australian conditions.

“We provide a low risk approach, leveraging on the experience of what has been done here with the Hobart class,” Navantia Australia’s managing director Donato Martinez said.

“If you want to retain employment and then grow the workforce, you need to start as soon as possible. We are fully committed to a fully Australian capability.”

But Dr Davis said if the government was “really serious” about dealing with threats from both North Korea and China it would purchase the American Flight III Arleigh Burke-class destroyers to cover air, surface and subsurface warfare.

The government is expected to announce the winning contender for the Future Frigates program in the first half of next year.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 28 Sep 2017 20:06
by MikeJames
You can tell Pacific 2017 is next week, each of the contenders is positioning themselves in the media.

Italian shipbuilder’s pledge to use all-Australian labour on frigates

Fincantieri built FREMM frigate from Italy.
The Australian12:00AM September 28, 2017

Washington CorrespondentUnited States

Europe’s largest shipbuilder has promised to turn Australia’s $35 billion naval frigate project into an all-Australian endeavour, with a listing on the local stock exchange and an all local workforce.

Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri will release details of its bid to build the new frigate fleet today, with the company opening an Adelaide office next month and placing pilot orders with Australian industry to prepare for the venture.

Fincantieri, which builds both warships and cruise ships in 20 shipyards around the world, will maximise the Australian contribution to the project in response to accusations from local shipbuilders that the three European bidders for the frigate project are in effect mounting a foreign takeover of local shipbuilding.

Fincantieri is up against British defence giant BAE Systems and Spanish shipbuilder Navantia for the right to design and build nine new frigates for the navy, optimised for anti-­submarine warfare.

The company plans to list its Australian business unit for building the frigates on the Australian Stock Exchange.

“This initiative allows Australian investor par­tici­pation in Fincantieri Australia and ensures decisions will be taken locally and in the best interests of Australia,” chairman of Fincantieri Australia Dario Deste said. He said the move means a share of the profits from the project would remain in Australia and he confirmed an Australian workforce would be used to build the frigates.

Mr Deste said Fincantieri was already mobilising Australian industry for the project and would recruit more than 150 Australian engineers and technicians to send to Italy next year to train on the Italian FREMM frigate project before commencing work on the Australian frigates.

Opening a new Australian ­office on October 10 would ‘‘expand Fincantieri’s operations into Ade­laide as we mobilise Australian industry, activate the Adelaide shipyard with the proven digital tools needed to build the Italian FREMM frigates on time and on budget in Italy and recruit and train the Australian workforce for the project”.

The company will use its expertise in cruise ship construction to build cruise ship blocks in Australia from next year, using Australian subcontractors to accli­matise them to the company’s methods leading into the start of the frigate construction in Adelaide in 2020.

Fincantieri’s rival bidders for the frigate project have also tried to Australianise their bid, pledging to use local workers and to modernise and digitise shipbuilding operations in Adelaide.

Australian shipbuilder Austal last month warned of a foreign takeover of the nation’s naval shipbuilding industry after it was revealed the government would allow the European bidders to not only design but also control the building process for the frigates.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 29 Sep 2017 09:38
by phillip08
You can tell the ship builiding circus is in town, there's a short article on page 27 of todays Fin Reveiw including a photo shopped picture of an F100 with a different mast setup to the AWD & current spanish version.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 29 Sep 2017 17:05
by RussF172
It will be interesting to see at PACIFIC on Tuesday. Have meetings with a few of them to discuss some ideas.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 03 Oct 2017 10:41
by SlatsSSN
Fincanteri building cruise ship modules in SA? .... will be interesting to see if that still happens if the FREMM is not chosen.

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Oct 2017 01:35
by glenhowells
On the news today i see that the future frigates air warfare capability for ICBM defence at a cost of 3 billion bucks. This must change the goal posts for the 3 contenders for the frigate project.

Cheers Glen

Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Oct 2017 17:17
by rritchie71
It's always been a future capability requirement for them, i.e. was not part of the initial build, but space for this capability had to be factored into the design.

Both the Italian Fremm (using Aster 30) and F100 (SM3) are already proven anti-ICBM ships, but that is using the radars and kit they have respectively.

Under Sea 5000, which ever ship is chosen, it will be using Aegis with Saab display and the Mk41VLS system. So the real questions are
Can the planned CEAFAR phased array do this, or do they need to go SPY phased array instead ?
When do we buy the SM3 missiles?

The other thing is, lets say the 3 AWD' and the 9 frigates are all fitted for this. Then take into account
How many ships are available at any one time.
How many it would take to create the ICBM umbrella

So who is left to carry out the rest of the RAN's missions.


Re: RAN OPV and Frigate shortlist news

Posted: 04 Oct 2017 23:00
by glenhowells
I also heard that the government was looking at making a bulk order to fit all 9 ships hence the 3 billion price tag. But yes Rob a bigger navy would be nice to meet other operational requirements. Seams that the government has no problem to pump money into defence lets hope it's all worth it in the end. Another government may have other ideas.