Task Force 72

Thought I'd share just a small part of the Seawolf kit in development via Joel Stadnick in Canada. I ordered this off the plan over a year ago based on the outstanding completeness and quality of Joel's Permit kit. I have kit no.1 coming my way in a few weeks time. The bulk of this underwater battleship is simply amazing.



That's no moon - that's a space station


Some dimensions in 1/72- OAL 1528mm, Beam 180mm (that's approaching FFG beam size), Draught 148mm

A complete work up of the development of this boat is found over at the link below but you need to create a log in to see all the photos. Well worth it though for the techniques employed by Joel could be applied to ship hull development too.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread. ... ht=seawolf

Best
J

Hi John,
what is that tunnel thing that runs along the upper deck? It looks like some sort of un-planned add-on (like the blisters on our crappy Collins subs) but I am sure the Yanks had a good reason for it and it was not a bodged "fix" like on our subs - is it to do with the towed array?
cheers
Kim

That's a sizable beasty just the thing for hunting Ritchie's Typhoon!!

B2

kimwhite wrote:Hi John,
what is that tunnel thing that runs along the upper deck? It looks like some sort of un-planned add-on (like the blisters on our crappy Collins subs) but I am sure the Yanks had a good reason for it and it was not a bodged "fix" like on our subs - is it to do with the towed array?
cheers
Kim

Towed sonar array casing - all the US nukes have had them at some stage in there life. There external as these are in fact clip on units. The clip on nature of them means the whole array can be removed when (not should) it get damaged. Also by looping it around within the longitudinal casing external to the hull means the array can be used in short form to a limited degree when housed. The Collins towed array when retracted is literally wrapped up on itself in a big spindle under the upper casing aft but external to the pressure hull but I don't know (and in fact would doubt) if it had any ability when wound up on itself.

The little blisters on the Collins are similar in function to the large (actually huge) rectangular ones on Seawolf, these are wide aperture sonar arrays. On Seawolf these arrays were subjected on her sea trials to extreme hydrodynamic friction caused by her remarkable sea trial speed which some say was as high as 50knots. The boat on Sea trials had no anechoic coating and this exposed the arrays to more in water friction than anticipated.

J

BsHvyCgn9 wrote:That's a sizable beasty just the thing for hunting Ritchie's Typhoon!!

B2

Yes an 8 gorgeous tubes too. I was planning on fitting only the upper 4 (2 each side). That said the torpedo launcher /system has now been completely re-tooled as myself and others only really in the last couple of months completed the most exhausting tests of it. I must have let loose over 400 torpedo runs and all that effort and others has gone into the next evolution which adds greater reliability and safety. I just got 8 new tubes in from the states and another 16 fish representing the final evolution that people can buy. I have almost a complete Seawolf Cache - 50 re loads! The great thing about the torpedo launchers is you can move them from boat to boat. I have the tubes mounted in place via friction fit and stainless steel nuts and bolts.

Just need to get Rob over from WA to form a Bastion with the Brad's ex Carl's Typhoon. Stalking the bear will be cool, as will avoiding the Alfas.

Best

John

You will need some underwater cameras like they use in Yokosuka drydock U-tube vids of the starship sub conversions.. that would look cool, plus some onboard micro cam's!!

Was saying 2 Vince today that it would be cool 2 see some vid from underwater as the ASW ships circle above..

Bruce (B2)

JS.........
The little blisters on the Collins are similar in function to the large (actually huge) rectangular ones on Seawolf, these are wide aperture sonar arrays. On Seawolf these arrays were subjected on her sea trials to extreme hydrodynamic friction caused by her remarkable sea trial speed which some say was as high as 50knots. The boat on Sea trials had no anechoic coating and this exposed the arrays to more in water friction than anticipated.

Actually, John, the blisters I was referring to are the ones which had to be added to try and iron out the flow noise created when the original Swedish hull design was "grown" to accommodate the RAN's attempts to turn the Swedish design into something approaching what they had actually wanted, which was the German boat.

When the Collins fiasco finally blew up and it was revealed that the RAN was trying to distort the selection process in favour of the German boat - after having rubbished the British Upholder design, and they ended up with the Swedish one as " last man standing", the Swedish design was sadly flawed and noisy. The blisters were part of the (inadequate) fix for what was always and still is a crappy boat, but don't get me started on that!!

I think the reason Allan Pew's original Collins hull needed some fixes was because he probably modeled the boat on the ORIGINAL specs. It changed quite a lot so needed mods to get it to it's current form, but that of course is not All's fault. Thank God the Americans can build submarines, at least!
cheers
Kim

Kim,
have to disagree mate - I am glad they went with the Collins design we finally have.
A great book is Steel, Spies and Spin....goes right through all the goings on on the Collins.

The German bid shot themselves in the foot. There were massive issues mainly around the Germans offering up an off the shelf proposal that simply did not have the range and functionality. Yes we could have had a quieter sub initially but it would have failed to achieve the long range uses intended for Collins. The public here in Australia were sold a lie, most public have in their heads that the Collins are "Dud Subs". This early media unfortunately is stuck as the position most Australians have. The fact is they are world beaters now at WESTPAC and RIMPAC and are now extremely quite and effective.

A key issue re the German proposal as per 'Steel Spies and Spin", was it met all design specs. According to the book, the basic problem with the German bid was it was obsessed in meeting the basic spec and had little regard to how the whole design proper could support the spec. -i.e.e.g the German design met the max speed spec so long as whilst the ship was on flank bell, the crew turned off the lights, heating, weren't running the galley, the a/c, and held their breath! The Swedes thought outside the box and quickly stated they could not achieve some key specs without improving the design, namely that involved building a bigger sub. The Swedes were bold enough to point out flaws in the design spec and how to correct it, the Germans took the view of simply meeting it. The British Upholders didn't get that far. (As an aside the RCN still have significant operational problems today with the Upholders - now Victoria class, and have taken decades to get boats in service.

If the Collins were so bad Kim in the end, why did the US Navy want to lease them?
Any new sub is a major undertaking for any nation. In fact I can tell you as Economist, the spin off industry boost - the multiplier effect, throughout the whole economy, vastly benefited from the Collins class project. That's not to say they aren't "perfect" or problem free - no sub is.

As for 'blisters" Kim, on Collins the major external changes were the sail and rear casing aft - I am not sure I'd call those 'blisters". If your referring to the blister like panels (-3 each side), these are sonar arrays that have not changed from design to final in service Collins spec.

I have clearly documented Al's boat differences in another thread and in the Course 072 mag. See here http://www.taskforce72.org/forum/viewto ... it=collins

Best

John

BsHvyCgn9 wrote:You will need some underwater cameras like they use in Yokosuka drydock U-tube vids of the starship sub conversions.. that would look cool, plus some onboard micro cam's!!

Was saying 2 Vince today that it would be cool 2 see some vid from underwater as the ASW ships circle above..

Bruce (B2)

Would love to explore that possibility - might try mounting a cam in the sail - the sail too has got a fairly big beam.

Just caught up with Joel, looks like the boat will be at the Subregatta on the Central Coast - whether it is there as built or simply in kit pieces will come down to how much time I don't have between now and then. I have just about got the water tight cylinder bedded down and then Joel had an interesting suggestion. -Install a secondary radio system allowing two crew members to partake in either helming and navigating or handling fire control. I'll see how I go handling on my own the 8 channels I have which are at capacity for the moment, but it sounds like an interesting scenario.

J

Hi John,
I know it would not be "correct scale" but what about towing the camera behind the sub as a "towed array" pod?? Profiding the pod was neutrally buoyant and had some fins on it, it may work well. And, it would be easy to remove/fit. Has anyone tried this?
Kim

kimwhite wrote:Hi John,
I know it would not be "correct scale" but what about towing the camera behind the sub as a "towed array" pod?? Profiding the pod was neutrally buoyant and had some fins on it, it may work well. And, it would be easy to remove/fit. Has anyone tried this?
Kim

Yep its been done recently in the Uk at the lastest Brockwell Run by both old and new types of subs
Towed array camera....on Vanguard



Below is the French Sub Grondin in both videos

Kim, I am aiming on doing this on Seawolf, I might even get the Oregon Scientic UW cam I have which is totally autonomous to fit into a DSRV or a DDS. That said the towed array sub cam is in some ways better.

Any cam you mount of the subs hull involves re-establishing both submerged and surfaced trims - the initial proper trim setup on a sub with no bells and whistles like this takes even with known calculations around 8 to 12 hours work in the test tank to dial in. The guys who regularly run cams on subs therefore have different setups whereby X amount of bouyancy and or X amount of ballast is kept on stand by for either addition or removal for running or not running the sub with Camera on board. Of course the smaller the camera the easier this job is.

The towed array cam is therefore attractive as your quite correct if its set up as a fluid device around as close as possible to the neutral bouyancy the towing aspect against a properly trimmed and ballasted subs is negligible.

The only concern is making the tow cable rigid enough to do two things, one clear on all angles the sub screw(s), and second be towed in a manner that the camera doesn't wander off on rapidly changing strange and fluctuating angles.

Cool stuff though Kim lots of fun. A variation I have seen on this is a secondary sub for the camera with a 2 channel control whereby the towed submarine has its own automated pitch controller, just like the main sub, and has rudder control and forward planes for depth changes. A secondary operator steers the camera and controls its depth,. whilst it is being towed, with pitch autonomously corrected by a 5v rail and auto leveller.
J

Another photo of the upper and lower hull halves.

The hull half in the top of the picture is lower hull half, lower part of the picture is the upper half. Note that the upper most torpedo tube spans the upper and lower hull halves.



These hulls are epoxy and all hulls from Joel are geometrically perfect. This means there is absolutely no alignment problems between upper and lower hulls.
All the kits come with indexing lips to ensure that the hulls stay true for forever.

J

Hi John, do you know how much this kit will cost when it is available?

Robert

PS.... Bruce you could probably get 4 of these inside the Typhoon hull....

Hi Rob,

Joel is aiming for a Northern Hemisphere spring release i.e. any time now through till June.
I ordered mine "off the plan", over a year ago when this project was simply on paper.

You can get in touch with Joel direct over at his facebook page
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...922927?sk=wall

In addition, I'll flick you his e-mail address via PM.
Best

J

Well its a few months behind schedule but I just had Joel Stadnick flick me these images of my hull in the mold.

Note the serial number the 10 denotes October the 11 the year and the 002 is hull no.2







Joel tells me that the production hull 001 which I was slated to get was not up to muster, and so this will be mine and hull 002 will become the lead boat in the production series. Shown here is but the lower hull. The Seawolf kit supplied contains everything you need to build the sub to a very precise scale detail. The PE parts are extensive as is the list of inclusions that mean the only thing you need buy is the ballast system. It is the most complete kit on the market and the only 1/72 Seawolf. It has been quite a while since I paid for this, but at every stage I was confident that this kit would be worth every cent.

In the coming months I hope to have this fully operational. I am also pleased to announce that Joel will be producing a complete 1/72 RN Astute class. This project is more than just planned. Jim Russell and myself have commissioned and paid fully in advance to Joel for the first 2 production hull kits of what is arguable going to be one of the finest sub kits you can buy.

1/72 scale sub kits are going from strength to strength with a number of new Russian and US hulls coming out soon. The Astute is an addition to the UK 1/72 side of things and will be a boost for Joel complete line up of 1/72 submarine kits.

J

John very cool project its amazing how big some of these sub are I hope you keep posting this build on task force very interesting! Keep up the great work. Scott

Hi Scott,
yes, Seawolf is big but did you know that K26, technically a WW1 British submarine (I say technically because she was not completed until after the war finished, was 350ft long, only 3ft shorter than Seawolf. I will have to admit that Seawolf displaces 6,000 tons more, though.
Sorry, could not resist a gentle leg-pull.
cheers
Kim

scott154 wrote:.. I hope you keep posting this build on task force very interesting!

I'll see how we go Scott, whilst I happily use my TF72 banned yet tame toy torpedoes legally and with no insurance issues elsewhere, it might not be appropriate to show them on this site. Seawolf will have 4 of 8 tubes capable of launching torpedoes and I have 50 fish for reloads. So it would be a key part of her build.
I have 4 launcher sets set aside, for Astute (she has 6 tubes), but the way I have worked out my own Fire Control I can move the torpedo system from sub to sub, tube by tube. Given the significant cost of the system, having it removable and transferable is great, and allows you to do the maintenance.

The other issue is technical- I find frequently I can't upload photos and then I can again.

1/72 scale is the way forward now in Submarine construction - 6 new kits coming along and more in the pipeline. In the next couple of years there will be more subs in this scale than any other. The sub force has never had such choice in this scale and is growing. So it would be nice for builds like this to be included.

Thanks

J

kimwhite wrote:Hi Scott,
yes, Seawolf is big but did you know that K26, technically a WW1 British submarine (I say technically because she was not completed until after the war finished, was 350ft long, only 3ft shorter than Seawolf. I will have to admit that Seawolf displaces 6,000 tons more, though.
Sorry, could not resist a gentle leg-pull.
cheers
Kim

Yep Seawolf is a wide mother 40ft beam....but Jimmy Carter the last of her generation is 453ft long and over 12,000 tons submerged.

J

A few nice shots of the back end hardware. Note the dual axles (2 each side) for the 4 working stern planes in addition to the upper and lower rudders
You can gang the 4 stern plans together (inner and outer) or you can split the outer 2 stern planes and mix them in aileron fashion with the rudders. I might try the later as a an induced bank on this might improve turning.
Just waiting on the carbon fibre pump jet blades to be finally out of the mold and my hull kit will be on its way.

SlatsSSN wrote:
1/72 scale is the way forward now in Submarine construction - 6 new kits coming along and more in the pipeline. In the next couple of years there will be more subs in this scale than any other. The sub force has never had such choice in this scale and is growing. So it would be nice for builds like this to be included.

Thanks

J

What are the kits that are coming out John????

Cheers Bruce (B2)

BsHvyCgn9 wrote:
What are the kits that are coming out John????

Cheers Bruce (B2)

Seawolf
Astute
Skipjack
Sturgeon
Victoria Class
USS Jack

SW is a little behind schedule, as I have asked for a Carbon Fibre impeller for my kit. Joel has stated that CF whole hulls are possible too.

J

SlatsSSN wrote:

BsHvyCgn9 wrote:
What are the kits that are coming out John????

Cheers Bruce (B2)

Seawolf
Astute
Skipjack
Sturgeon
Victoria Class
USS Jack

SW is a little behind schedule, as I have asked for a Carbon Fibre impeller for my kit. Joel has stated that CF whole hulls are possible too.

J

,,,,make that 7 new 1/72 scale kits.

Seawolf
Astute
Skipjack
Sturgeon
Victoria Class
USS Jack

and British T class.

Joel reports the Seawolf kit is now complete and supply is ready for the market.
Shipping date for my kit via courier is 5 Dec so hopefully she might be here pre Christmas.

J

Cool John I know how you feel I too have a new model coming in a couple of weeks! We are just as bad as our kids can't wait! Sorry it's a target not a sub John. Scott

Hi John,
whatever happened with your Sea Wolf?
Kim

Hi Kim
my Seawolf was built last January (2012) and has been operational since.

Complete build thread here:
http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread. ... 72-Seawolf

Photos from the last ACT Subregatta here from Craig Taylor:
http://picasaweb.google.com/109021189115218019334

On board videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _Gb6pmxF4Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... tQMWuvQsjI

J

D'oh! Missed that news, will catch up by checking those links.
cheers
Kim