Hunter Class overview

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Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

An interesting overview on the Hunter class from The Australian's Defence supplement.

Sailing into the future of warfare

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The Hunter-class future frigate will be at the cutting edge of modern naval technology

KYM BERGMANN

This year is a pivotal one for the Hunter-class future frigates as the project goes from design to construction. Heavily armed and 150m long — which is almost the length of the MCG playing field — the new ships will be at the leading edge of naval technology and twice the size of the Anzac frigates they are replacing.

As they start to come into service later this decade, the nine ships will form the backbone of the largest expansion of the RAN’s surface fleet since World War II.

The heart of their combat power are 32 vertical launch missile cells that can hold a single SM-2 or a quad-pack of ESSMs for use mainly against aerial targets.

These weapons are controlled by a world-class Australian-designed and built radar suite from Canberra company CEA.

Using fixed arrays, the system is able to produce a large number of multidirectional electronic beams simultaneously that can detect even small targets from a distance of several hundred kilometres — an essential capability for defending the ship from saturation missile attacks.

Based on the British Global Combat Ship — selected by Canada as well as the Royal Navy — with a displacement of 8000 tonnes, a top speed of 27 knots and a range of 13,000km, they are big enough to carry a comprehensive anti-submarine warfare suite.

This will use a hull-mounted and immensely powerful variable depth low-frequency active sonar for long-range detection.

Prosecution of a hostile submarine — of which there are a growing number in this region — is done with lightweight torpedoes fired from the ship itself, or more likely dropped from an embarked MH-60R Seahawk helicopter as it hovers over the target.

The GCS design is optimised for anti-submarine warfare, having a stealthy hull form and exceptionally quiet diesel-electric motors that will make the ship hard to detect. High-speed propulsion comes from two Rolls- Royce gas turbine engines.

Prime contractor BAE Systems is confident that construction will begin on schedule in the final quarter of this year. The company is reluctant to commit to a specific date because of the potential impact of COVID-19 on its supply chain and — like all of industry — the need to modify work practices to guarantee staff safety.

At the moment there are 600 employees directly on the project and, despite the virus, it’s business as usual. The gigantic main assembly hall at the new purposebuilt Osborne shipyard in South Australia is almost complete and numerous subcontracts have already been awarded.

One of the reasons for selecting the British design is that the RN program is about four years ahead of Australia’s and the first ship is being constructed in the city after which it is named — Glasgow. Everything below deck is identical to the Hunter-class, giving Australians the chance to gain experience and insights into exactly how the ship is being built before returning home and applying that knowledge locally.

The RAN also has people on site in Scotland and in the British Ministry of Defence, and they have full visibility of the program. If any changes need to be made to the British design during construction, these will automatically flow through.

The Australian superstructure will be different because of the distinctive radar mast — and also because the RAN uses different missiles and helicopters than their British counterparts. However, many other features of the parent design will be retained, such as an enormous bridge — and below it the critical combat information centre that “fights” the ship in wartime — as well as a huge internally located multi-mission bay with an overhead crane.

This is another unique feature of the design and is big enough to house extra resources such as a Chinook helicopter or up to four RHIBs of the type used by special forces for high-speed operations. For humanitarian and disaster relief operations — which are becoming increasingly prevalent — this space also could be used to accommodate temporarily dozens of extra people.

As well as having staff embedded in the British program, BAE Systems also has retained key staff in Australia to build the first two Offshore Patrol Vessels at Osborne before work transitions to Western Australia for the construction of the remaining 10.

This approach was taken by the federal government to minimise the shipbuilding “Valley of Death” between the end of the Air Warfare Destroyer program — the last of these three ships was handed over to the RAN on February 28 — and the construction of the Hunter-class. This more modest contract for the construction of lightly armed 1800-tonne ships is also going smoothly.

The first of the Arafura-class is taking shape at Osbourne, with the fore and aft sections now joined together to form the complete hull. All of the trades required to do the work — especially welders, pipe fitters and electricians — also will be essential for the Hunter-class.

Depending on their age, workers might then eventually move to the next major activity in the 2030s — a midlife upgrade of the Air Warfare Destroyers. This is all part of the plan to give Australia a rolling naval shipbuilding capability in perpetuity.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

The latest Senate estimates have confirmed that the Hunter class have grown in weight, with Navy admitting full load tonnage will be 10,000 tonnes plus.

Given the size and displacement, the Hunters will be as big as a Burke class destroyer.

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Re: Hunter Class overview

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​China warning as ships delayed

The construction of the first three of the navy’s nine new frigates will be delayed by up to 18 months, as Defence Minister Peter Dutton warned China’s rise meant Australia could not afford further slippages in the timeline for its new frigates and submarines.

A frustrated Mr Dutton has ­delivered a blunt message to all prime contractors for the $45bn frigate project and the $90bn submarine project, saying Australia cannot allow these crucial projects to drift at a time of growing strategic uncertainty.

His comments came after he publicly confirmed for the first time that construction of the first of the new Hunter-Class frigates had been pushed back by up to a year and a half due to delays in the development of Britain’s Type 26 Frigate, on which the Australian ship design is based.

Under a revised schedule, the delay will be recovered only by the time construction begins on the fourth ship, meaning the first three frigates will now face a delayed introduction into naval service from the early 1930s.

“It is frustrating to see an up-to-18-month delay to the start of construction of ship one, but importantly this delay will be recovered over the term of the project,’ Mr Dutton told The Weekend Australian. “We are making difficult decisions in the national ­interest.

“It is important to note that the Australian changes are not the cause of the delay. The delay is directly related to the UK’s Type 26 design maturity which flows through to our program.”

He warned that Australia could not afford further setbacks in its major naval shipbuilding projects, given the rise of China.

“Our strategic circumstances with regard to the CCP (China) in our region mean I don’t intend to just sit back and let these projects drift,’ he said. “I have delivered a blunt message to all the primes and made it very clear they are to deliver these defence projects on time and on budget.”

Both the plan to build the frigates – the mainstay of Australia’s future fleet – and 12 new French-designed submarines have hit problems early before steel is cut on any of them.

The frigates will be based on Britain’s Type 26 frigate but will be modified to include a US combat system and an Australian radar, among other changes.

However, the development in Britain of the Type 26, which is not yet in service, has been delayed by design and weight problems, as well as by the Covid-related lockdowns in the UK this year.

This has meant the design is still too immature for the Australianised version to proceed as scheduled in Adelaide, and Mr Dutton has accepted advice that a delay of up to 18 months in the first ship would reduce design-related risks for the Hunter-Class boats.

The revised schedule means all nine frigates will still be delivered as originally planned by 2044. However, steel will not be cut on the first ship until 2024. It will not be completed until 2031, and will not enter service until 2033.

There is a concern that the weight of the new Hunter-Class frigates is already too heavy to ­accommodate future upgrades to weapons or other systems, potentially limiting their lifespan as ­effective warships.

The evolving design work on the Hunter-Class has seen the ship’s weight jump from a full displacement weight of 8800 tonnes to more than 10,000 tons.

The vessel’s weight margin – in other words the margin of growth to place future systems on the warship in years to come – is only 270 tonnes, or 3.3 per cent. By contrast the current ANZAC-class frigates had an initial weight margin of growth of 10 per cent, although this was larger than normal because they were built without ­several key systems.

“The risk is you won’t be able to evolve the vessel over its career because essentially you have used up the weight margin to add future systems to it as the threat evolves,” said Marcus Hellyer, a senior defence analyst with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute.

Craig Lockhart, the managing director of the frigate builder, BAE Systems Maritime Australia, denied the ship was too heavy and said its weight would not detract from its performance. “The Hunter ship … is within the design criteria to meet key whole-ship per­formance characteristics,” he said.

The government recently revealed that the cost of the project had jumped from $35bn to $45bn.​
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

Never, ever, underestimate the RAN's ability, aided and abetted by the defence industry, to frak up anything they get their hands on.

The latest fiasco is the Hunter class.


Frigates sink us further into risk of expensive duds
BEN PACKHAM

RAN Type 26 01.jpg

An artist's impression of a BAE frigate.
2 HOURS AGO JANUARY 31, 2022

Australia has done it again, buying an unproven defence design and creating innumerable further problems by modifying it to meet our own requirements.

The classified “Engineering Team Assessment” of the $45bn Hunter-class frigate program, revealed by The Australian, should be a wake-up call to the government – without urgent political intervention, the frigates risk becoming expensive duds.

The report should also be a warning of the high risks of selecting a British-designed nuclear submarine.

The British government and its privatised defence giant, BAE Systems, claimed its Type-26 frigate was the most advanced submarine-hunting ship on the market.

But unlike its Italian and Spanish competitors, the British option existed only as an immature design, not a completed ship.

Defence and federal cabinet ministers somehow swallowed the BAE line that the huge risks of buying a “first of class” vessel would be mitigated by the delivery of the first Type-26 for the Royal Navy ahead of the initial Hunter-class vessel.

But the British vessel is running well behind schedule, and Australia’s mandated design changes have caused flow-on problems throughout the vessel.

The additions of a US AEGIS combat system and Australian-designed CEAFAR radar have increased the frigates’ designed weight so much that the hull has had to be enlarged and redesigned.

The extra weight means the ships will be slower than envisaged, have a shorter range, and draw so much power that commanders will have to decide whether to prioritise the radar or propulsion system.

There are also stark warnings over the ship’s radar and noise signatures, and risks to crew members in the event of floods and fires.

Staggeringly, the report reveals Defence has left itself with little contractual leverage to force the company to shoulder these risks and fix the problems at its own expense.

Taxpayers now face a drawn-out design and construction process, with escalating costs and delays, and no guarantees that the ships will do what they’re supposed to.

Unfortunately, the new AUKUS partnership between Australia, Britain and the US makes it all but impossible for the Morrison government to cancel the contract as it did with the French Attack-class subs.

An Albanese government might feel freer to revisit the decision to go with the British design.

Either way, Peter Dutton or his Labor successor will have to personally take charge of efforts to get the frigate program back on track.

BEN PACKHAMFOREIGN AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE CORRESPONDENT
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

The original, scathing article. BAE does not come out of this looking at all well.

I suspect that Chief of Navy, VADM Noonan, will be explaining this mess to the Defence Minister, in the next day or so.

Perhaps we should go to the fall back position of building 3 or 6 more Hobarts.


$45bn Hunter-class frigates slow, unsafe: Defence

BEN PACKHAM
FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE CORRESPONDENT
@bennpackham

12 MINUTES AGO JANUARY 31, 2022

Australia’s new $45bn Hunter-class frigates will be “substantially” slower, have a shorter range than originally intended, and could be vulnerable to detection by enemy vessels, a classified Defence Department report reveals.

The Defence “Engineering Team Assessment” of the frigates program, undertaken last November, warns the ships could also be less safe for crews, with the potential for sailors to become trapped below deck by floodwaters in “credible damage conditions”.

The 36-page report sets out an array of serious problems with the “immature” British design, which is being substantially modified to meet Australian requirements, and warns that the government’s contract with shipbuilder BAE Systems provides “very limited means … to influence contractor performance”.

BAE won the contract in 2018 to build nine anti-submarine ­frigates in Adelaide to replace the Anzac-class fleet, with the first ship due to enter service in 2033.

The company claimed its design was the most advanced and stealthy on offer. But unlike its competitors, Spain’s Navantia and Italy’s Fincantieri, BAE’s design was an unproven one.

Taxpayers could now face a drawn-out design and construction process – with escalating costs and delays – like those that dogged other recent Defence projects ­including the recently dumped French submarine program.

The report, seen by The Australian, is scathing in its criticism of the British contractor, which will be responsible for building the nation‘s nuclear submarines if Australia goes with the UK’s ­Astute-class boat.

It blasts slow feedback and “confusing and incoherent” provision of data by BAE, and says the company’s design process “does not adhere to normal system engineering practice”.

The report says Australian ­defence companies are being passed over, with BAE claiming local ­industry content requirements are “a complicating factor for system design maturity”.

The document, marked “sensitive”, warns that the inclusion of a US combat system and ­Australian-designed CEAFAR2 radar have pushed the ships’ “space, weight, power and cooling margins” to their limits, posing “significant potential risk”.

The proposed ships are now “substantially heavier” than BAE’s original Type-26 frigate ­design, which has also faced ­delays and design headaches, ­requiring a modified hull to ­accommodate the additional weight and design changes.

82bc722b0df4c3e2cd9b85d06540bc84.jpg


The report warns that the changes have caused serious ­design issues that have cascaded through the program, driving up electrical power consumption with “a negative impact on speed and range”, and causing problems with the cooling of the vessel’s combat system.

“The overall power demand of the Hunter-class frigate still ­exceeds its ­generating capacity … and is exacerbated in tropical and antarctic environmental conditions,” it says. “Vessel maximum speed at start of life will be substantially lower than comparable RAN surface combatants.”.

The report adds that the ­heavier-than-anticipated ship will face “increased fuel consumption and running costs, particularly in the 17-18 knots range”.

The shortfall in the vessel’s available power will force ­commanders to decide whether to “prioritise power allocation to ­either the CEAFAR2 Radar or the propulsion system depending on the ship’s operational requirements”, the authors warn.

The “System Design Review Exit” report says the ship’s mast design could increase its radar cross-section, and the ­additional thrust required from its propellers could breach the contract’s “underwater radiated noise” requirements, making the vessels more vulnerable to the submarines they are supposed to hunt.

The Defence engineering team says it has “low confidence” that the vessels will meet Royal Australian Navy weight-margin standards, leaving the first three ships potentially “unable to respond to technological surprise with future capability upgrades”.

It also warns that the new ­design of the ship’s topside mast is so immature that there is a risk it could destabilise the vessel “past the point where a feasible ship design is possible”.

The modified design’s ­additional displacement and draught have called into question previous assessments – based on the Type-26 – of its seakeeping performance. The need to fit in additional power and cooling equipment is reportedly degrading “the overall liveability of the ship‘s habitable space”, while the document warns of design compromises in the provision of fixed firefighting systems.

Last July, Defence Minister Peter Dutton approved a delay in commencement of construction on the first boat, from December 2022 to June 2024, but the report says this deadline is now tight.

It warns more schedule delays are expected, and there is a “very high risk” that increasing supply chain costs will “threaten project viability”.

BAE Systems is relying on its global supply chain, minimising risks associated with using unfamiliar Australian suppliers that would otherwise fall to the company, the report says.

The report predated the recent replacement of BAE Systems Australia chief executive Gabby Costigan, who will head the company’s global business development, by former chief technology officer Ben Hudson.

A Defence spokeswoman said the document was an internal management tool that provided a snapshot of program risks at a point in time, and solutions to the problems were “well underway”.

Chief of Navy Mike Noonan said he was “absolutely confident” that the Hunter-class frigates would be “a world-leading warship with state-of-the-art anti-submarine capabilities”.

Australian Strategic Policy Institute executive director Peter Jennings said the government should call “time out” on the program to ask “is this the right way to go?” He said Defence was “losing the confidence of government” because “it just doesn’t seem to be able to deliver”.

Australian Industry and Defence Network chief executive Brent Clark said delays in the Hunter-class program left BAE without a reasonable excuse to prioritise its foreign supply chain over Australian companies.

“Given our current strategic environment, the Australian government should be ensuring that an Australian capability is created by this and other defence programs,” Mr Clark said.

Under the revised timetable, the first ship will not be completed until 2031 and will enter service in 2033. The final frigate is scheduled to enter service in 2044.

BEN PACKHAM
FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE CORRESPONDENT
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

Perhaps the RAN should go back to building the Hunters as an ASW frigate and stop trying to turn them into an Aegis fitted AAW cruiser.

Build more Hobarts for the AAW role and leave the Hunters as ASW specialists.

See that wasn't so hard, and I don't wear gold braid on my shoulders.

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Re: Hunter Class overview

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The Australian National Audit Office has issued their report on the Hunter class procurement and its unbelievably damning, no other word for it.

According to the ANAO, Defence records have revealed the department's initial assessment concluded the Italian FREMM and Spanish F-100 were better options for Australia than the British Type 26 design.

"The meeting records indicated that the Italian FREMM (Fincantieri) and Modified F-100 (Navantia) were considered the two most viable designs and that either the Type 26 or the French FREMM should be progressed as a third option."

"Defence did not conduct an effective limited tender process for the ship design. The value for money of the three competing designs was not assessed by officials".

Originally planned to be a $35 billion acquisition, its currently at $45 billion and ANAO states "At January 2023 the project was forecast to exceed the whole of project budget approved by government by a significant amount,"

The ANAO report has also found the scheduled delivery of the first Hunter-class frigate in early 2031 is facing a fresh delay of around 16 months, meaning it is likely to now happen in mid 2032.

Much of this delay is due to the so-called 'Noonan doctrine', which states that all future RAN major surface combatants must be fitted with AEGIS. That massive redesign has in effect crippled the design, resulting in a ship that has inadequate power to support the AEGIS system, ships propulsion and other power rerquirements, resulting in a ship significantly over weight, slower and with a shorter range than intended.

The result is that there is intense speculation that the Hunter build will be reduced to 6 ships to pay for three additional Hobart class, probably to be built in Navantia's Ferrol shipyard, where the Supply and Canberra classes were constructed.

And this is the organisation that wants to build nuclear submarines here in Australia, just say no.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by SlatsSSN »

Mike - thanks - agree with everything there, however, as someone that conducts program and economic evaluations for Government - I'm not surprised. This evaluation from the ANAO, like any evaluation is only as relevant as the terms of reference (TOR) that it was constrained to evaluate. Govt evaluation parameters are notoriously rigid in the scope of what can be evaluated, and they are very much constrained to original tenders and KPIs which are to be tested. The evaluation processes don't pivot to considering a shift in intent well at all, and evaluators that want to guide the process in a more agile pragmatic version, often do themselves out of a job.

The TOR are borne out by ANAO evaluating the tender as per its original intent. It is entirely likely it would have made virtually no allowance for scope creep caused at the time of the decision by other factors, and the biggest one at the time would have been the state of our submarine force, the decades to acquire new ones directly linked to not buying a quicker more off the shelf solution as Abbott wanted via the Japanese Soryu class submarine. When that deal could not get locked in, the reality of not having a submarine capability for decades as per the then French alternative saw the need for the Frigates to have a far greater emphasis on ASW that the tender originally specified. On that basis alone Italian FREMM / F100 though could be made capable to have greater ASW, would have had a tougher sell to get the gig, and that is fundamentally why the T26s were chosen. The T26 force will be made to do the ASW heavy lifting given the decades plus capability gap we will now have with AUKUS and ageing Collins.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

More detail on this.

BAE Systems won $45bn contract to build Hunter-class frigates without effective tender process

Image
An artist’s impression of a Hunter-class frigate. Picture: BAE An artist’s impression of a Hunter-class frigate. Picture: BAE

By BEN PACKHAM
FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND DEFENCE CORRESPONDENT
MAY 10, 2023

British defence giant BAE Systems was selected to build the navy’s $45bn Hunter-class frigates ahead of preferred rivals without an assessment of its bid’s value for money.

An explosive auditor-general’s report found the Turnbull government failed to conduct an effective tender process for the massive procurement – one of the nation’s largest ever – and warned the troubled program was facing further cost blowouts and delays.

The audit found the procurement process “lacked a value for money focus”, and that “key records, including the rationale for the procurement approach, were not retained”.

“The value for money of the three competing designs was not assessed by officials, as the Tender Evaluation Plan proposed,” the Australian National Audit Office said in its report, tabled in parliament on Wednesday.

“Contract expenditure to date has not been effective in delivering on project milestones, and the project is experiencing an 18-month delay and additional costs due in large part to design immaturity.”

It said the cost of the program was set to exceed its $45.6bn government-approved budget “by a significant amount”, and that the first of nine frigates now wasn’t due to be delivered until mid-2032.

The audit found a February 2016 meeting of a key Defence committee believed Italy’s FREMM and Spain’s modified F-100 frigate “were considered the two most viable designs”.

The findings come as the Albanese government considers the future of the Hunter-class program amid soaring costs and a push to get new capabilities faster than BAE’s two-decade build schedule.

The government’s surprise five-month review of the navy’s surface fleet requirements follows last month’s defence strategic review, which considered calls to slash the number of Hunter-class frigates.

Defence’s offshore patrol boat program is also under a cloud, amid concerns the 12 Arafura-class ships will be too lightly armed for a potential conflict.

The audit follows warnings by Defence engineers – revealed by The Australian – that the ship would be “substantially” slower, have a shorter range than originally intended.

The Defence “Engineering Team Assessment” set out an array of problems with the “immature” British design, which is being substantially modified to meet Australian requirements, and warns that the government’s contract with shipbuilder BAE Systems provides “very limited means … to influence contractor performance”.

Confirmation of the botched frigate tender follows the Morrison government’s cancellation of the French Attack-class submarines, which cost taxpayers at least $3.4bn.

But slashing the Hunter-class frigate tender order will be politically difficult, as Britain and BAE Systems are key partners in the AUKUS submarine project.

Defence Minister Richard Marles last month defended the need for a further review, describing it as a “short condition check at this moment in time about the future shape of our surface fleet”.

“Now that we are going to be operating a nuclear powered submarine, that is a dramatically different capability, and it obviously has some implication in terms of the overall structure of the navy…as we think about the next three decades,” he said.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

The Hunter class seems to be inching towards cancellation.

Shipbuilder defends $45 billion frigate project as axe hovers

The shipbuilder behind Australia’s $45 billion fleet of new frigates has defended the project following a scathing auditor-general’s report amid speculation the number of warships ordered could be slashed as part of a high-level naval review.

British defence giant BAE Systems insists it is making “strong and tangible progress” fixing problems with the Hunter class frigate and it remained committed to building nine warships in Adelaide to hunt down submarines.

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The government may cut the number of Hunter-class frigates built to free up money for smaller vessels.

With construction yet to get underway in earnest, the Albanese government has referred the fate of the frigates to its review into the navy’s surface combatant fleet, headed by former US Navy Vice Admiral William Hilarides.

The review, commissioned following the Defence Strategic Review, will look at whether Australia needs a fleet of smaller but more numerous warships packed with missiles, rather than the 10,000 tonne frigates configured for anti-submarine warfare.

The frigate program has suffered from several delays, cost increases and problems with its design, with the weight and size of the planned vessel having to increase to accommodate Australian demands, compared to its original UK base design.

The issues over the ship’s weight have eroded margins for growth – such as adding new weapons – over the ships’ lifetime, as well as raised questions over its performance, including its speed and range.

An Australian National Audit Office report, released last month, revealed the project is facing fresh cost blowouts and delays, with the first ship not expected to be delivered until mid-2032.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by SlatsSSN »

Thanks Mike.

So the Government :stupid: will have a capability gap on the never never on new submarines that WON'T ever be built in Australia, and now we are walking away from Frigates with ASW capability. One would think that ASW platforms would be essential. Maybe that's logical thinking and asking too much. What a clustafuck!
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by littoralcombat »

I don't believe that as of now any statement has been made by any credible 'official' source that the Hunter project is going to be canned in its entirety John.
Without doubt, I suspect they will be considering cutting some hulls from this Class and acquiring instead additional AWD's. Three is the number being bandied around, but we won't know for sure until it is (or isn't) announced. If that happens it will be driven by the $'s as well as the recognition that the switch to SSN's represents a substantially increased Fleet ASW capability. For the record, I think we still need the full nine given the rapid increase in the number of Chinese Submarines.
As per usual though, we are seeing a lot of 'huff and puff' nonsense from the free press who are, of course, free to print whatever rubbish they wish. Fact checking, what's that? Just fill the page with anything to keep the Editor happy.
September will be here soon enough.
Nige
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

I suspect that we will end up with six Hobarts (Hobart, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Newcastle and Darwin) and six Hunter class (stupid names by the way).

If it was me, I'd abandon the Hunters, order three x additional AWD from Navantia to get ships here sooner, and three more from ASC, to give us nine ships. I would then segue to building nine of the F110 ASW derivatives of the F100 / Hobart class, which are already set up with phased array radars so less chance of messing up the design, here in Australia at Osborne. That would mean Osborne builds 12 ships, not nine Hunters.

That would give us a fleet of 18 frigate sized vessels.

To compensate, given our manpower constraints, I'd start handing the Arafura's across to Border Force once the first new Hobarts arrive, and transition ABF off the Cape class and onto the Arafura's, rebranding them as the Australian Coast Guard, a name which covers more than Border Force and is a lot easier to sell. I'd also hand back the Cape class and leave that sort of constabulary wok to the Coast Guard, instead concentrating Navy on the warfighting role.

Never happen though, partly because the current federal government is beholden to the unions, and because dumping the Type 26 derivatives would look bad under to our AUKUS partners, especially the UK.

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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by SlatsSSN »

MikeJames wrote:

Never happen though, partly because the current federal government is beholden to the unions, and because dumping the Type 26 derivatives would look bad under to our AUKUS partners, especially the UK.

Mike


Indeed...

couple of obs about living in SA and working in Govt.
The employment practices in SA are archaic. Corporations do not want to come to SA - because state based IR policies are unworkable.
A significant portion of the workforce to build / planned to build the ships / subs are and will be FIFO. Yes Adelaide is just a country town, but its hardly a remote mine site! The whole defence procurement for anything that floats or submerges seems to be completely hamstrung by providing jobs to SA. It might take a war (a terrible thing to contemplate) for there to be a reality check that a pipe dream employment program for SA should not constrain what's needed. SA could stick to maintenance - and they'd probably struggle to do that too.
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by glenhowells »

By the time the government decide what to build. being the first of class which generally take longer to build. So say 8years from now 2031. HMAS Sydney commissioned in May2020. 11years between Sydney and Hunter what a joke and that's if they started building today
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Merchants:
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Vivienne Venezia - Harbour Tug.

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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by SlatsSSN »

I didn't like Scomo - but one thing he got right was his quote on the state / capability of SA yards and SA Govt "I wouldn't trust them to build a canoe"
Nothing will be built on time here EVER
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by BsHvyCgn9 »

SlatsSSN wrote:I didn't like Scomo - but one thing he got right was his quote on the state / capability of SA yards and SA Govt "I wouldn't trust them to build a canoe"
Nothing will be built on time here EVER


And the reason it got that way was because they wanted to screw the state over when the previous State Labour govt. would not bow down to bullying by Scummy and his Defence Minister. If they had built the 4th Hobart and not stuffed around deciding what to build next we would still have a trained and worked up workforce in place ready to build any large surface combatant..All of the build problems had been sorted by the time they started 3rd DDG. The fact that they began shedding workers as HMAS Sydney was being completed is a disgrace. I have meet loads of workers over the last few years who loved working there but would never go back due to the way they got boned by the shipyard management.

B2 :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
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Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by MikeJames »

That comment was not made by the then PM but his Defence Minister, who lost his job over it.

"Defence Minister David Johnston has warned he would not trust the Government-owned defence builder, the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC), to build a canoe."
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Submarines:
HMS Talent S92 - Trafalgar Class SSN (James Slater)
USS Columbus 762 - Improved LA Class 688i

Merchants:
SMIT Japan Harbour Tug - (James Slater).
Vivienne Venezia - Harbour Tug.

Warships: (Under construction) -
HMAS Anzac -150 FFH (2007)
HMCS Forest Hill -K486 Flower Class Corvette
HMAS Stuart DE48 (James Slater)
HMS Cavalier D73
HMCS Fraser DDH233
Location: Adelaide

Re: Hunter Class overview

Post by SlatsSSN »

MikeJames wrote:That comment was not made by the then PM but his Defence Minister, who lost his job over it.

"Defence Minister David Johnston has warned he would not trust the Government-owned defence builder, the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC), to build a canoe."


Thanks - I can cross off the one thing on my list I liked about Scumo :lol1:
He who dies with the most toys, just dies...you can't take it with you.
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